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What is the nature of denial??

Well, this was a discussion of 'denial' Aldebaran, so I guess one question you might ask, and in your comments you imply an answer to this, is whether you are able to notice your 'existential committments' and to adjust them if they conflict with reality. I gather from your post that you feel that you are able to do this, in which case, I don't think the author would necessarily want to say that you are the phenomenon that he's trying to explain.

If I understand his account correctly, he's trying to interpret cases where such committments do conflict with reality, and yet go unchallenged. I've found it quite useful in understanding conspiracy theorists and free-market economics.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Well, this was a discussion of 'denial' Aldebaran, so I guess one question you might ask, and in your comments you imply an answer to this, is whether you are able to notice your 'existential committments'

I'm in that context not such a unique case that me being who or what I am can be used as an exeption. From what you quoted I gain the impression he shows a general lack of appreciation,recognition, up to lack of awareness of our existence :)

If I understand his account correctly, he's trying to interpret cases where such committments do conflict with reality, and yet go unchallenged. I've found it quite useful in understanding conspiracy theorists and free-market economics.

Of course in context of a broader spectrum of issues he makes valid (bot not new) observations. My attention was drawn to his rather superficial, generalising (and ignorant) approach of "religion" as a hindrance for rational behaviour "by default".

salaam.
 
Auberon, for someone who just joined as a member you seem to be extremely focussed on me, following me around with one-line "answers" in at least 3 different threads today.

I'm not here to establish a Fanclub, but if you insist, I shall send you a member card.

salaam.
 
Well, the bit I was quoting from was specifically about the pathological case.

He obviously sees some positive applications for such existential committments too, for example, in Bateson's analysis of why the Alcoholics Anonymous method often works, in cases where methods based on 'will power' do not.

It's just that he's sensitive to the dangers of such an approach, specifically that the existential committment can itself become an addiction of a sort, which can in turn lead to doing stuff most people would regard as crazy and antisocial and to denial that there is any kind of problem with such actions.

Whether that committment is to religion or Milton Friedman doesn't necessarily make a whole lot of difference unless you think religion is entitled to special consideration, which I personally don't and doubt he does either.

Ultimately the criterion should always be how people act. Analysing why they act like that can be useful though and I think there are some valuable insights to be had from his line of thinking.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
It's just that he's sensitive to the dangers of such an approach, specifically that the existential committment can itself become an addiction of a sort, which can in turn lead to doing stuff most people would regard as crazy and antisocial.

My arguments on his approach of religion are caused by the fact that this is my first academic discipline. In general addiction to ideas -such as the ones he proposes as being his - can always lead to irrational approach, but it is not inevitable (which I gathered he almost considers as being inavoidable.) I discover many addictions of that type among so called "rational atheists" :)

On an other note: I have no idea how the AA works but have now the impression it is religiously inspired, which is for me a surprise.

salaam.
 
Here's his description of Bateson's analysis, which unfortunately isn't AFAIK reproduced online. If I could, I'd much rather link to Bateson's stuff because he's by far the more substantial thinker.
Gregory Bateson offers a suggestive account of how such a call motivates existential and epistemic change in his 1971 essay, "The Cybernetics of Self: A Theory of Alcoholism." (Psychiatry 34, No. 1 (1971): 1-18, reprinted in Steps to an Ecology of MInd (New York: Ballantine Books, 1972, pp. 309-337). There he contrasts the standard Western epistemology that opposes a self-sufficient subject to an external world with a "theological" model in which the self is understood to be a part of a larger whole. The former model, failing to acknowledge transcendence, makes resistance to alcohol a matter of will power; it is notably unsuccessful in treating alcoholism. The latter model, acknowledging transcendence, transforms resistance into an act of surrender to a more powerful being. As Bateson comments, "To be defeated by the bottle and to know it is the first ‘spiritual experience.' The myth of self-power is thereby broken by the demonstration of a greater power" (p. 313).

His analysis of alcoholism rests upon an epistemic shift in the thinking of the alcoholic. According to Bateson, the alcoholic at first sees himself caught in a classic Cartesian opposition between an inviolate self and competing other -- the self versus desire, the body, alcohol. The will power of the isolated self is challenged by the temptation of drink; the struggle to resist alcohol is a struggle of the will. The alcoholic, by definition, fails, repeatedly, in this struggle, but he fails not as a consequence of a weak will or of the overwhelming power of desire, but precisely as a result of his own strength. As long as alcohol is resisted, the will is strong; but the very strength of the will, in order to be maintained as strong, requires further challenge. Such challenge can only be provided by alcohol, by challenging oneself to take one and only one drink and then to resist taking a second and a third. But of course, once one drink is consumed, the desire to have a second and a third proves to be overwhelming, and the cycle of drunkenness, resistance, temptation, test, failure, and drunkenness repeats itself.

Bateson's insight was that the symmetric logic of schismogenesis, in which temptation is countered by resistance in an ever-increasing series of challenges, is transformed by the logic of Alcoholic Anonymous. AA performs logical judo, transforming the symmetric logic of increasing struggle into the complementary logic of mutual accommodation. The first rule of AA is that "There is a Power greater than the self." Once this Power is truly acknowledged, and once one understands that alcohol is one version of this Power while God is another, the possibility exists for cure. One can cease struggling against alcohol by acknowledging its superior strength; but one can be cured of alcoholism by surrendering to a different fount of superior strength, God.

Both alcohol and God are stronger than the alcoholic. The alcoholic's error lies in thinking that he is as strong as alcohol, and can resist it through an act of will. Once he acknowledges his own limitation, once he acknowledges the existence of greater powers than himself, then his surrender to them will not be understood as a sign of weakness but rather as an act of self-knowlege and inner strength. He must surrender, but to God rather than to alcohol.

Bateson's lovely argument is that what is required of the alcoholic is, at first, a shift in epistemology: "Notably, the change is from a incorrect to a more correct epistemology" (p. 313). Here I would disagree in that the shift does not happen in this way experientially. Rather than the shift occurring on the epistemic level, I would suggest that it is a shift in metaphysics from which an epistemic shift also results secondarily. Metaphysics precedes epistemology. That is, I believe that first one experiences one's own limited power not as a cognitive matter, but as a matter of lived-experience -- of job loss, of destroyed relationships, of the deterioration of personal health, of finances, and, ultimately, of the acknowledgement of the failure of will alone -- and then one comes to an understanding both that there is a Power greater than the self, and that surrender to this Power offers a chance at salvation.
source above.
 
What I miss in the quoted piece of Bateson is the causes for alcoholism to occur, but maybe he mentioned that previously.

I notice that the author you refer to mentions them in his comment to underscore his disagreement, which I find a bit curious.
I think I can agree with Bateson's analysis but n general I would approach the argument "will power" with more caution because the ability to have it, use it or simply become aware of it is subject of influence by a vast variety of factors and I don't think there even *is* a complete understanding or knowledge of all of them.

salaam.
 
At a guess (I haven't read his stuff properly for years for lack of access) what Bateson would say is that schismogenesis, by which he means roughly 'self-sustaining processes which lead to conflict in a society', in this case leads to a self-sustaining conflict between the alcoholic and the bottle. A battle of wills.

It is however a big mistake (for which he criticises himself in a later preface to the book in question) to act as though such a process was a closed system and able to be explained entirely on its own terms.
 
soulman said:
Yes to all your questions and I'll explain why.

Science is bullshit. Anything that attempts to set the objective above and beyond the subjective is bullshit. I have no time for so called 'eminent and respected scientists'. People who consider themselves 'experts' should be challenged and people like blagsta who defer to a book, to an 'expert', rather than think for themselves are part of the reason why people lack confidence in their own abilities.

You are funny! :D
 
Aldebaran said:
On an other note: I have no idea how the AA works but have now the impression it is religiously inspired, which is for me a surprise.
In that case, you're going to very surprised to read the Twelve Steps. :)

A person who joins AA is supposed to work through these steps in the order they are written, while attending weekly meetings which, typically, are closed with the protestant Lord's Prayer.

An unruly alcohol user who refuses to accept Step One is said to be in denial.

Twelve Steps

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made a direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

:eek:
 
Most 12 step groups are not overtly religous these days. They talk about a "higher power" rather than God. This "higher power" can be anything - a tree, your future self, whatever.
 
Jonti said:
There is such a thing as reality.

I think you might be in denial about that :p
Aldebaran said:
I would narrow that down to "I perceive something I see as my reality, which probably exists only in my brain's perception".

I seldom have known the luxury by which I am able to deny my own existence :)

salaam.
Very Cartesian :)

I think the man's genius was in encapsulating the Indo-European tradition (of souls and avatars). But that view leads one straight into the classic epistemological problem, of how one gets from "my reality" to the real. There's really no point in talking about brains if one cannot make the connection, if you see what I mean.

Given the Cartesian view, the goodness of God is our guarantee of knowledge. But for practical purposes, one needs to know something of the workings of the process, and not just leave things as "it's god wot dun it". The Cartesian view essentially makes it impossible to progress on this. It is a dead end.

If you like, however the Almighty One worked this wonder in practice, it was not by this means.
 
The nature of denial is that this action helps protect the ego, that sense of who "I" am. If our standing in the world and in our families and communities is to be maintained, then information that arrives in the brain threatening our understandings, and our relationships with people, must be rejected. However true or objective that information may be, higher needs help us ignore the message that is so unwelcome.

The flaw in this, that we attach ourselves to this ego as being one and the same, is the reason that denial can work.

However, once one separates the ego from the real self, then denail is denied any basis on which to do damage. If you simply don't care, then why deny?

Another thing about denial, to the open mind, to the mind that is still learning, it cannot exist. Denial is an action that belongs to those that have stopped learning, to those that already know everything.
 
Auberon said:
It is disappointing but not surprising to see you use such pejorative terms about the mentally ill.

:confused: In what way is it any different? In fact, "mad" is often more honest - than say schizophrenic - a term as meaningless or meaningful as "mad", that is used primarily to give the diagnosis "mad" a pseudo-scientific/medical authority.

Denial is self-deception, but how can such an activity be possible? A serious mystery, unless we are all split rather than unitary selves, -

Really everyone lives in a world of their own - of their own construction, and there is no default position of what is -given/obviously true- once we drop the denial/construction/self-deception.

Science. Since science by its own methodology rules out the interpersonal viewpoint, and takes instead the "objective" viewpoint, it can tell us about reality from one point of view, but it's point of view rules out saying anything interesting or useful about good, evil, hope, faith, doubt, music, art, friendship, love, hate, or really any of the things that make human life interesting enough to be worth living. The idea that science is anything more than a useful method for finding out some things about reality, the idea that it can be authoritative on anything of importance, is just ridiculous
 
fela fan said:
The nature of denial is that this action helps protect the ego, that sense of who "I" am. If our standing in the world and in our families and communities is to be maintained, then information that arrives in the brain threatening our understandings, and our relationships with people, must be rejected. However true or objective that information may be, higher needs help us ignore the message that is so unwelcome.

The flaw in this, that we attach ourselves to this ego as being one and the same, is the reason that denial can work.

However, once one separates the ego from the real self, then denail is denied any basis on which to do damage. If you simply don't care, then why deny?

Another thing about denial, to the open mind, to the mind that is still learning, it cannot exist. Denial is an action that belongs to those that have stopped learning, to those that already know everything.

All good stuff. Denial is doubtless the shock absorber of the soul. But how can one deceive oneself? To be able to do so implies one is not one at all, but several -- and that one of one's selves is pulling the wool over the eyes of the others. Who am I, if there is another another "me" that can systematically fool this me?

It seems the notion of denial forces us to accept that we are not psychologically unitary things at all. Like the stroke patients that Ramachandran writes about (very summarised, here), we each have many sets of beliefs, and each belief set may contradict the others. Yet we move smoothly between these belief spaces, feeling we are always the same "I". It's as we all suffer from a mild multiple personality disorder :eek:

And how does the purely physiological, neurological, denial (as described by Ramachandran and summarised at the link I've given above) mesh with the psychological "repressive" denial that you've described?
 
Jonti said:
All good stuff. Denial is doubtless the shock absorber of the soul. But how can one deceive oneself? To be able to do so implies one is not one at all, but several -- and that one of one's selves is pulling the wool over the eyes of the others. Who am I, if there is another another "me" that can systematically fool this me?

Personally, I agree with Plato's tripartite division of the soul into rational, passionate and appetitive elements, and with his construction of an ethical hierarchy between them. It follows that the demands of the appetite and the passions will regularly conflict with the demands of reason. In this case, "denial" would be such an irrational passion.
 
fela fan said:
Another thing about denial, to the open mind, to the mind that is still learning, it cannot exist. Denial is an action that belongs to those that have stopped learning, to those that already know everything.

It's not that simple.

Abused children sometimes protect themselves by deleting the painful memories. That's a category of denial, and has nothing to do with knowing everything.
 
Jonti said:
All good stuff. Denial is doubtless the shock absorber of the soul. But how can one deceive oneself? To be able to do so implies one is not one at all, but several -- and that one of one's selves is pulling the wool over the eyes of the others. Who am I, if there is another another "me" that can systematically fool this me?

Not several selves, just two. The ego, and the real self. The ego is not actually ourself, even though we identify with it as the real us. The ego is a very cunning slippery fellow. To lie comes simply if there is to be a gain, or an avoidance of a bad thing. The ego can convince itself of anything. And if the ego is in charge, ie the person carrying it associates him/herself with their ego as being the real them, then the bit that we may call the soul is suppressed.

To avoid getting into denial, one must be tuned into the real self, and one must be able to control one's ego, not be controlled by it.
 
fela fan said:
Not several selves, just two. The ego, and the real self. The ego is not actually ourself, even though we identify with it as the real us. The ego is a very cunning slippery fellow. To lie comes simply if there is to be a gain, or an avoidance of a bad thing. The ego can convince itself of anything. And if the ego is in charge, ie the person carrying it associates him/herself with their ego as being the real them, then the bit that we may call the soul is suppressed..

No offence, but I don't believe this freudian crap.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
No offence, but I don't believe this freudian crap.
Hindus
http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa102602a.htm
Why is it Difficult to Ward Off the Ego?
However, if you think pride or ego is easy to get rid of, think again! The play of the ego pervades our whole life. The ego does not go away by merely substituting some set phrase for “I”. As long as the body is alive and the mind functions in and through the body, what is known as the ego or the personality will arise and exist. This ego or pride is not a permanent and unquestionable reality. It is a temporary phenomenon; it is ignorance that invests it with permanency. It is a concept; it is ignorance that elevates it to status of reality. Only enlightenment can bring you this wisdom.
Muslims
God teaches us that the ego can become an idol and the consequences can be detrimental for our salvation. Those who idolize their selves or egos may be sent astray by God, despite the knowledge they acquired:

Have you seen the one whose god is his own ego? Will you be his advocate? (25:43)

Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, God sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by God? Would you not take heed? (45:23)
http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/perspectives/more/traits/ego.html

Punks
Anger always stems from the belief that you are right and your circumstances are somehow 'wrong'. When you think you're right - when you know for certain you're right - in the face of circumstances that are somehow 'wrong', that's when you need to look hard at what's actually happening inside. Your habit of reacting with anger has been built up over long years of reinforcement from a society gone terribly wrong. Society is made up of people all clinging to the fiction of ego who draw support for this idea from the fact that so many others believe it.
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma8/rage.html
 
The term was coined by Freud. If these works on religion are discussing ego, then there is some derivation from Freud.

If you can find a religious text from before Freud's time that mentions it, I'd like to take a look at it.
 
Also, the notion of the concept of 'I', as being something separate and apart from the universal consciousness, is a different idea from Freud's ego, described by fela.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
No offence, but I don't believe this freudian crap.

No offence taken. Cept it ain't no freud crap. It's my crap thanks.

And it's not even crap johnny, it's fact mate. Have you not tried observing your ego? Have you not felt the confusing pull by both heart and head on what to do sometimes?

Your ego mate is your society and your past all mixed up. You is you, and is the bit that belongs outside of the realm of language. This real you cannot harm nature, because it is part of nature, and harming oneself is only something the ego will propose.

I've never read freud, and about the only thing i could tell you about him is that he was a famous psychologist and he was obsessed about sex.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Also, the notion of the concept of 'I', as being something separate and apart from the universal consciousness, is a different idea from Freud's ego, described by fela.

Huh? Have i described freud's ego?? Each of us has an ego. Each of us has an inner self if you like. What you call it is unimportant, but what i use 'inner self' to mean is the bit of you that is human, animal, nature; in that hierarchical order. We may even call it our soul.

The ego cares and worries about its host's image and acceptance by others in society. The real self doesn't care, because it just observes without judgement. It just is, and it just happens.

So, maybe ego = the 'I' that we think society wants us to be and to say and to do, whereas the bit that is really us is simply a part of the universal consciousness.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
The term was coined by Freud. If these works on religion are discussing ego, then there is some derivation from Freud.

If you can find a religious text from before Freud's time that mentions it, I'd like to take a look at it.

You're not for one moment saying that freud coined the concept of ego as well as the word? Understanding and knowledge of the ego preceded freud by bloody years man.

Anyway, i look at ego and its impact on our lives, and it is squarely our ego that is responsible for our ability to self-delude ourselves. The ego is about judgement and the real self is about being and observing.
 
fela fan said:
Not several selves, just two. The ego, and the real self. The ego is not actually ourself, even though we identify with it as the real us. The ego is a very cunning slippery fellow. To lie comes simply if there is to be a gain, or an avoidance of a bad thing. The ego can convince itself of anything. And if the ego is in charge, ie the person carrying it associates him/herself with their ego as being the real them, then the bit that we may call the soul is suppressed.

To avoid getting into denial, one must be tuned into the real self, and one must be able to control one's ego, not be controlled by it.

Of course there is ego denial (or Freudian repression). And of course the human capacity for self-deception was observed and remarked on long before the 19th Century's thinkers on the subject.

But, have a read of this again (better yet, get hold of a copy of Phantoms in the Brain and enjoy Chapter 7, The Sound of One Hand Clapping).

The Freudian repression sort of denial cannot be relieved, even temporarily, by squirting ice-cold water into the left ear! :D There is something else going on here.
 
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