butchersapron
Bring back hanging
They're so vague they could apply to any party not on the electoral map by WW2 - left or right.
What is the long term strategy of the SWP
- Thread starter sonny61
- Start date
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Making banners for protest marches. They seem to be very good at this.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
5. appropriate student-loan funds of people called Tarquin and lucy via dint of paper sales, subs, book sales, whatever. redistribution, innit.
Tarquin has a capital T if you don't mind. I don't go leaving the capital letters off your name. Lucy can look after her own name though. But surely if you want to keep up this picturesque stereotype shouldn't she be Lucinda?
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
Indeed, tidied up for the benefit of all. last really posh girl I met was a 'Lucy', y'see 
This is honestly the primary reason I turn up to anything SWP related. Otherwise I would go postal.
march here
don't march there
we are as left as a left footed bag of left
nobody else is
what a success we are
join the swp
join the swp
JOIN THE SWP!?!!?!!!??!
no
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
A serious point
Going back to the original message....
I don't see how standing for election in a Parliament which is largely discedited and now an almost powerless talking shop or to stand for a local council which are mostly ignored by the public and are now run by small cabals - would help the fortunes of the SWP. And if there was an lesson from history after the dead-end of Respect then they would be better-off doing anything and everything but stand for election.
From their point of view (and I'm no supporter of their's) the big anti-war demo was their greatest achievement and their constant appearence on the picket line of any industrial dispute is the backbone of their work which as we enter a worsening ecomic cris which pay off in the long-term. Just like Militant was well placed to react to the Poll Tax movement which brought down Thatcher.
The tactics of a long term strategy is something any political progressive must be very concerned with so its a shame the thread isn't taken more seriously.
Going back to the original message....
I don't see how standing for election in a Parliament which is largely discedited and now an almost powerless talking shop or to stand for a local council which are mostly ignored by the public and are now run by small cabals - would help the fortunes of the SWP. And if there was an lesson from history after the dead-end of Respect then they would be better-off doing anything and everything but stand for election.
From their point of view (and I'm no supporter of their's) the big anti-war demo was their greatest achievement and their constant appearence on the picket line of any industrial dispute is the backbone of their work which as we enter a worsening ecomic cris which pay off in the long-term. Just like Militant was well placed to react to the Poll Tax movement which brought down Thatcher.
The tactics of a long term strategy is something any political progressive must be very concerned with so its a shame the thread isn't taken more seriously.
electric.avenue
lots of work to be done
I'm an ex-member. I'm left with the feeling that there's a lot of good things about the swp and a lot of bad things.
One of the good things is that they are/were good at building demos, and the big anti-war one was bloody sensational. I was a member then, and was totally on a roll. Also, they were good at connecting with the anti-capitalist movement and getting people to the various anti-capitalist demos, such as Prague, Genoa, Nice, Brussels, etc.
Marxism was pretty good too, though a bit stage managed sometimes.
Bad side is no real democracy within the party - decisions just made by an inner circle, and everybody else follows, no questions asked. There's a definite hierarchy within the party, with some comrades seen as more important than others. Swp-speak for this is that some people are described as "good" or "top cadre". Also there is a bit of a culture of sneering at or bullying some people, or just cutting them out of the information loop.
It seems that most people who have been in the party for any length of time end up being booted.
They jump around from one thing to another - one minute it's the Socialist Alliance, next minute it's Respect. They destroyed the Socialist Alliance which had taken years to build up - about the most unforgivable thing they have done imo.
I'd love to know to what extent it has been infiltrated by the Establishment, MI5 or whatever. The rumour was out years ago that this is what had happened. The Swp certainly does seem to be a good instrument for breaking up any genuine movement, eg: the Socialist Alliance, any genuine local activity, etc. I know case after case of people who genuinely wanted to something in their area like anti-fash, but got frozen out by the local swappie godfather.
One of the good things is that they are/were good at building demos, and the big anti-war one was bloody sensational. I was a member then, and was totally on a roll. Also, they were good at connecting with the anti-capitalist movement and getting people to the various anti-capitalist demos, such as Prague, Genoa, Nice, Brussels, etc.
Marxism was pretty good too, though a bit stage managed sometimes.
Bad side is no real democracy within the party - decisions just made by an inner circle, and everybody else follows, no questions asked. There's a definite hierarchy within the party, with some comrades seen as more important than others. Swp-speak for this is that some people are described as "good" or "top cadre". Also there is a bit of a culture of sneering at or bullying some people, or just cutting them out of the information loop.
It seems that most people who have been in the party for any length of time end up being booted.
They jump around from one thing to another - one minute it's the Socialist Alliance, next minute it's Respect. They destroyed the Socialist Alliance which had taken years to build up - about the most unforgivable thing they have done imo.
I'd love to know to what extent it has been infiltrated by the Establishment, MI5 or whatever. The rumour was out years ago that this is what had happened. The Swp certainly does seem to be a good instrument for breaking up any genuine movement, eg: the Socialist Alliance, any genuine local activity, etc. I know case after case of people who genuinely wanted to something in their area like anti-fash, but got frozen out by the local swappie godfather.
Jean-Luc
Well-Known Member
Like I said, this could be a description of how any Trot group works. They all believe in having leaders and in jumping on any bandwagon that's rolling to try to steer it in their direction and jump off again when this doesn't work.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
latter would also apply to anarchists
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
Millies, at their best, weren't quite of that ilk, they were far more about building at the roots
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Some examples, please.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
And that's why we still remember some of their "good works" 20+ years after Kinnock expelled them from Labour: Because they didn't mind getting their hands dirty at community level. The Trots, on the other hand, have always taken an elitist stance, which isn't surprising given their near-feudal structure.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
sadly, this is absolutely true, something exacerbated somewhat by their tendency towards m/c membership, culture etc.The Trots, on the other hand, have always taken an elitist stance, which isn't surprising given their near-feudal structure.
no reason why it should - always and necessarily - be so, tho'...
electric.avenue
lots of work to be done
sadly, this is absolutely true, something exacerbated somewhat by their tendency towards m/c membership, culture etc.
no reason why it should - always and necessarily - be so, tho'...
But doesn't it all depend on how you define class in the first place? I've heard the term "middle class" used loads of times, and yet the people being referred to are simply white collar workers, often on pretty low wages.
Also, I'm not really sure what "working class culture" or "middle class culture" are - where does one start and the other end? Doesn't culture also depend upon where you live?
The term "working class" tends to be used to refer to people working in traditional blue collar industries, such as mining (now mostly gone in the UK), factory work, the trades, like plumbing, decorating, plastering and other building trades. But a lot of this sector has shrunk in recent years with the decline of the mines, manufacturing, steel work and so on.
Office workers, call centre workers and the like, may have to put on suits and speak standardised English (or the standard form of the language where they work), but they are often no better off than blue collar workers.
I'm not really sure that the whole "w/c vs m/c" paradigm is useful any more within left politics, as it tends to just be a bit of a "culture war", and usually what it ends up doing is pitting white collar worker against blue collar worker, which is pretty divisive, imo.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
I've noticed that with the SWP recentely quite a few attractive women in and around it.
Went down hill a bit during the late nineties 'till recentely.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
And that's why we still remember some of their "good works" 20+ years after Kinnock expelled them from Labour: Because they didn't mind getting their hands dirty at community level. The Trots, on the other hand, have always taken an elitist stance, which isn't surprising given their near-feudal structure.
I think most Militants/SP members would most certainly see themselves as Trotksyists.
JHE
.
You mean there are some who do not? They won't last long.
Millies were, are and ever shall be Ortho-Trots. Amen.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
It was a figure of speech, I rearely described myself as a Trotskyist' because it became such a debased term, however my politics were most certainly in the vein of Trotskyism.
'Ortho Trots'? Don't be silly. Speaking as a former member and current 'critic' they were/are-except up in Scotland at present-the least sectarian and most flexible group on the Left by the proverbial country mile.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yeah, maybe I should have said "Trots", as the Swappies and their satellites aren't exactly "the real deal" by the measure of anyone who's sane.
The Millies walked the walk and talked the talk. The swappies usually only go for the latter.
electric.avenue
lots of work to be done
Politics apart, there always was plenty of top totty in the swp, and I've enjoyed my share, first as a non-member, then as a member.
Mr Electric and I met in the swp.Millie/SP didn't seem to be in the same league at all in this respect.
But I digress.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
I thjink we have a divergence of class definitions in this country: on the one hand the classic marxist/economistic definition - whether you have ownership of the means of production distribution and exchange, or not - and on the other the cultural definition, which is the only one, by definition, which can make sense of the very term 'middle class'. culturally, the SWP are very middle class.
The fact is, as britain's economy - along with thatb of many other 'western' economies - mutates from bluecollar/smokestack/manufacturing economy to whitecollar/service economy, this divergence will grow. as you so rightly point out, call-centre slaves are as proletarian in terms opf their position in the scheme of things as the likes of James Connolly ever was!
kavenism
Progressive misanthrope
Yeah completely agree with this. Although I must say I have experienced a fair bit of guilt tripping for showing any kind of overt consumerism or “bourgeois” tendency from other SWP members. Much of their definition of class (at least from a superficial perspective) seems to revolve around cultural politics. I work in a manufacturing facility and yet I get treated like some kind of elitist for choosing to spend my spare time at Tate modern or because I prefer continental beer to shitty mass market lager. I find this particularly stupid as the people I get this attitude most from are full time employees of the SWP who have never done a days work outside the party in their lives. It’s a pretty insular clique inside “the circle”.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Politics apart, there always was plenty of top totty in the swp, and I've enjoyed my share, first as a non-member, then as a member.
Millie/SP didn't seem to be in the same league at all in this respect.
But I digress.
Think thats a bit hard on the Millies.
Maybe there aren't as many available young women in SP?
Or do you reckom SWP girls are easy!!!!!!
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