What is middle class cuisine?

[butchersapron]

Irony escapes you.

only difference between my post and the OP is that one is type of classism is activley applauded, other is bannable offence.

Shit thread is sucky.

You are mad if you think that. Have you been reading Fernand Braudel on the spice trade? Are you banned?

 

[DotCommunist]

Moves are afoot to stop us from sneering at the middle classes, DC. I task you now to find a new demographic for those of us who enjoy a good sneer to sneer at before there's nothing left to sneer at any more. Priority: Urgent.

Weathermen perhaps?

we could jeer at Michael Fish for getting it wrong once ages ago. That never gets old

 

[mrsfran]

What? Are you seriously arguin that food has never been eaten by differing social strata ie classes as a result of their price, their availibility? There is a pretty clear historical tradition of certian foods only being accessible, for various reasons ie money, affordability and even law. Certain foodstuffs are not actually middle-class but for some pretty obvious reasons they become the 'preserves' (no pun intended) of those rich enough or aspirational enough to want them.

Any claim that food historically hasdn't been subject to the same divisions that occur in the rest of society is frankly laughable.

I'm not arguing that different social strata have eaten different food in the past. However, that's not really what this thread is about, is it? It's about what "traditional middle class cuisine" is. Like I said, I challenge you name some middle class dishes without sneering.

I do however realise I'm being a bit humourless about this. I am middle class, I grew up on Birdseye Fishfingers and Pot Noodles, and now I buy my food at the farmer's market, organic where possible, and prefer focaccia to Mighty White

 

[Limejuice]

Middle class food:

70s - fondu, Liebfraumilch

80s - pasta, Chianti

90s - Sainsbury's fish counter, Chablis / Sancerre

00s - Rocket, Shiraz

 

[DotCommunist]

Is baked alaska middle class? cos I quite like that. If it is deemed middle class I'll administer my own neckshot for being a class traitor

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not arguing that different social strata have eaten different food in the past. However, that's not really what this thread is about, is it? It's about what "traditional middle class cuisine" is. Like I said, I challenge you name some middle class dishes without sneering.

You have argued that there are no class based cuisines - consistently on this very thread. You now seem to accept that there were but that was what you meant all along?

 

[Belushi]

Is baked alaska middle class? cos I quite like that. If it is deemed middle class I'll administer my own neckshot for being a class traitor

It's Arctic Roll for the proles I'm afraid

 

[Fedayn]

Like I said, I challenge you name some middle class dishes without sneering.

In this country? Traditional or 'modern'? Foreign or 'British'?
Caviar, black truffles, good graded oysters, food in the restaurants run by the likes of Mosimman, Ladenis, Roux, Blumenthal. Are you seriously arguing that 'we all eat the same' thing and that working-class pockets are able to make the above regualr? Are they aimed at ordinary working men and women? As a qualified and former working chef, who was offered a job by Rick Stein, I have seen with my own eyes at first hand how food is absolutely mirrored in class division.

And yes I can do it without sneering, so less of the patronising condescencion please.

 

[Hi-ASL]

Weathermen perhaps?

we could jeer at Michael Fish for getting it wrong once ages ago. That never gets old

Ooh, I dunno. What class is he?

 

[Fedayn]

I do however realise I'm being a bit humourless about this. I am middle class, I grew up on Birdseye Fishfingers and Pot Noodles, and now I buy my food at the farmer's market, organic where possible, and prefer focaccia to Mighty White

I would rather everyone bought food at farmers markets and organic where possible. But that's the whole point isn't it? You can afford to do it? Is it a result of your 'inate' desire to eat good food or your ability to shop there as regularly as you like?

 

[mrsfran]

You have argued that there are no class based cuisines - consistently on this very thread. Yu now accept that there were but that was what you meant all along?

I say that there is no "middle class traditional cuisine". It's an invented idea. We eat the same things. You know yourself that the concept of the "middle classes" is a relatively recent thing. Food history was divided between upper and working class, not middle class and working class.

And you STILL haven't named a middle class dish without sneering. You can't do it, can you? That's my objection to this thread. It invites sneering.

 

[mrsfran]

In this country? Traditional or 'modern'? Foreign or 'British'?
Caviar, black truffles, good graded oysters, food in the restaurants run by the likes of Mosimman, Ladenis, Roux, Blumenthal. Are you seriously arguing that 'we all eat the same' thing and that working-class pockets are able to make the above regualr? Are they aimed at ordinary working men and women? As a qualified and former working chef, who was offered a job by Rick Stein, I have seen with my own eyes at first hand how food is absolutely mirrored in class division.

And yes I can do it without sneering, so less of the patronising condescencion please.

The middle classes eat caviar and truffles? What planet do you live on? I could never afford that and I'm the most middling middle class person there is!

As a chef, you've seen what peoiple eat in restaurants. Is that what a cuisine is, or is it what people eat at home? Because at home, I'm eating fishfingers, and lamb chops, and curries, and shepherd's pie and so on. The same as everyone else.

 

[DotCommunist]

Ooh, I dunno. What class is he?

Everyone on tele is middle class except in soaps and dreary kitchen sink dramas. FACT

 

[mrsfran]

I would rather everyone bought food at farmers markets and organic where possible. But that's the whole point isn't it? You can afford to do it? Is it a result of your 'inate' desire to eat good food or your ability to shop there as regularly as you like?

The fruit and veg at the farmer's market is cheaper than the supermarkets. And it doesn't matter whether the potato that goes in my shepherd's pie is organically farmed by the phases of the moon or Tesco Value - we're still all eating shepherd's pie.

 

[butchersapron]

I say that there is no "middle class traditional cuisine". It's an invented idea. We eat the same things. You know yourself that the concept of the "middle classes" is a relatively recent thing. Food history was divided between upper and working class, not middle class and working class.

And you STILL haven't named a middle class dish without sneering. You can't do it, can you? That's my objection to this thread. It invites sneering.

No it's not, it's a class that's millenia old. Food history (as all written history) was divided along a continuum not a black/white divide. Those in the middle, with relatively higher access to resources are/were middle class.

I don't need to name a traditional m/c dish 'without sneering' for this to be historical fact. And now you're back to saying that there are no differences or class based cuisines contra your last point. Mkae your mind up.

I don't think that you've quite grapsed that this isn't a moral thread, that it's more an historical thread (now anyway).

And finally, is sneering not allowed - is 'inviting sneering' not allowed? Have you been on the internet before?

*sighs*

 

[mrsfran]

edit.

nevermind. I've been on the internet long enough to know that this isn't going to go anywhere and life's too short. I withdraw

 

[Fedayn]

The middle classes eat caviar and truffles? What planet do you live on? I could never afford that and I'm the most middling middle class person there is!

And you ask 'us' not to sneer..... Well perhaps you're not as 'middle class' as you'd so clearly like to think. Have seen it with my own eyes, or are you saying that I am mistake?

Truffles aren't 'that' expensive compared to 'new' food fads. The ability to eat better food at home due to your class background is there for alkl tyo see, you yourself admit your preference for farmers markets and organic food for focaccia over mighty white. Why is that? Is it a result of your inate ability to know better food or as a result of your background?

 

[butchersapron]

And if working class cuisine is so different, what are working class people eating that's so different to what I'm eating? A potato is a potato. Are you seriously going to argue that working class people don't care about what they eat as much?

Wow, you genuinely, no messing, really do not get it do you?

 

[butchersapron]

What is this resistance to admitting difference from our m/c brothers and sisters?

 

[Fedayn]

The fruit and veg at the farmer's market is cheaper than the supermarkets. And it doesn't matter whether the potato that goes in my shepherd's pie is organically farmed by the phases of the moon or Tesco Value - we're still all eating shepherd's pie.

It doesn't matter if the wine I drink is a £20 bottle of montepulciano D'Abruzzo and yours is Thunderbird we're still both drinking wine.....

edit.

nevermind. I've been on the internet long enough to know that this isn't going to go anywhere and life's too short. I withdraw, you can carry on

Aaaaah so you edit out your strawman claim that somehow people here were arguing that working-class families don't care about their food. Well eidted, especially as no-one said implicitly or explicitly that that was the case.

 

[mrsfran]

Yes, that's what withdrawing is

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I don't think that the m/c eats the same thing as the w/c. I do not think, however, that there's any specific "middle class cuisine". It's a combination of stuff that everyone eats including the w/c, and whatever u/c food can be afforded as a signifier of wealth and also maybe because it tastes nice.

I just don't see that the middle classes have historically been in a position to develop their own cuisine. There are preferences, but there's nothing intrinsic to the m/c that they eat which nobody else does. It's too small a group, too social-climbing and not rich enough.

 

[DotCommunist]

middle class grub is fond of naming the ingredients ennit. Not just beef, but angus beef. etc.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I'm missing it a bit, is this a serious thread or a pisstake one?

(I can't say I'm entirely innocent on that score to be fair.)

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think that the m/c eats the same thing as the w/c. I do not think, however, that there's any specific "middle class cuisine". It's a combination of stuff that everyone eats including the w/c, and whatever u/c food can be afforded as a signifier of wealth and also maybe because it tastes nice.

I just don't see that the middle classes have historically been in a position to develop their own cuisine. There are preferences, but there's nothing intrinsic to the m/c that they eat which nobody else does. It's too small a group, too social-climbing and not rich enough.

That's fair enough if you look at in simply in terms of main ingredients. But in terms of smaller ingredients and things like spices and time availible to spend on preperation/cooking and the wider options this opens up significant differences do arise. The core is very likely the same, but it's the rest that counts.

Maybe.

 

[Sweaty Betty]

The only difference is the fact they can afford better quality food, if they so choose....

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm missing it a bit, is this a serious thread or a pisstake one?

(I can't say I'm entirely innocent on that score to be fair.)

fuck knows, I've just been using it to take the piss.

 

[Belushi]

I've never known a middle class person to eat crinkle cut chips.

 

[Hi-ASL]

What's the Urban75 position on pine nuts? You can only buy them in specialist 'health food' shops.

And most supermarkets.

 

[Fedayn]

What's the Urban75 position on pine nuts? You can only buy them in specialist 'health food' shops.

And most supermarkets.

Very nice in a pasta dish with olives, tomatoes, flat-leaved parsley and garlic.