What is it you support about your football club?

[tangerinedream]

So you mean Bolton upsetting arsenal and virtually decide the premiership outcome is patronising? Bolton do beat the top teams (on their day) and\or give them a scare. Bolton need to go to the next level. Liverpool is my club, for many years we relied on michael owen for our league position and spent the sort of money that would make alan pardew blush. West ham OUTPLAYED OUT THOUGHT, OUTWORKED us in the FA cup and were unfortunate not to win it.
middlesborough beat man u and chelsea and lose to someone like us, or a west brom.

How long is it since anyone outside of the current big 5 won the FA cup or qualified for europe (champions league - where the money is?) How on earth will Bolton 'go on to the next level' without spending millions they simply do not have.

The only teams I can think of to have broken the monopoly of Arse, Liverpool, Man Utd, Chelsea are Newcastle (on the back of enourmous investment, Leeds - ditto, Blackburn - ditto.) Spurs look like the team who could break into the elite group, but it's hardly pennies that have got them there. Throw in Everton for one paltry year and it's not looking wholly competitive is it?

You can't possibly compare these teams to say, the West Ham side that finished 3rd in 86, or the QPR side of 88 that pushed Liverpool a long way, or Wimbledon or Coventry winning the cup in 88 and 87 or Norwich being 2nd in April (can't remember the year) or even leeds winning the league so soon after promotion from the old Div 2 or Watford reaching cup finals and finishing second in the early 80s or the asounding success of Clough and Taylor at Derby or Forest.

The fact of the matter is, the league was more fluid before the pr£mi£rship. That is an undeniable fact, this was surely a good thing in terms of creating an interesting competition.

(you've still not answered what happened during the world cup to make you so pro-premiership by the way)

 

[BIG davie H]

i support just being blue, the is not a choice we are the peoples club and of

 

[muser]

Who said you need to spend money. Wenger has done it on a shoe string and continues to do so. It is a matter of belief. Leeds under peter ridsdale tried to go to the 'next level' by buying their way there and got caught. This isn't a judgement on the board but there is a right and wrong way of doing things. It is easy to talk on hindsight, but the team on the back of one CL semi final shouldn't have splashed the cash. Liverpool won the CL but as a supporter I'm under no illusions about how good we are. We finished 3rd a point behind Manu, some of our fans are talking of winning it this time around, I say they should open another bottle and stay in bed.
West Ham are a selling club, should they reverse that trend the sky is the limit. They finished 9th, but they are a top 6 side. Spurs brought in an ageing Edgar davids and all the talk is of a midfield engine which rocketed them into 5th spot. Remember they were unfortunate not to get 4th and a champions league place. Some might argue it was a matter of belief, Arsenal showed they had it. Although otto rehhagel proves the point by taking Greece all the way, no big names, no history. Just hard work and team ethic.

 

[BIG davie H]

How long is it since anyone outside of the current big 5 won the FA cup or qualified for europe (champions league - where the money is?)
everton less we forget

 

[muser]

How long is it since anyone outside of the current big 5 won the FA cup or qualified for europe (champions league - where the money is?)
everton less we forget

Too true, hard work and determination. Ipswich too a few years back.

 

[jonnyd1978]

As a Bradford City fan, I've seen the highs recently. And the lows. We spent 2 seasons in the prem and a couple of years later we were minutes from extinction. That's the sort of thing that makes you love your club...thinking it might be gone.
I loved our days in the prem, but a part of me wants to keep us out of there again. (Not that we'll be back there too soon anyway!) Keeps it real in a way. A flirt with the top six, the odd decent cup run with a minor giant killing on a cold evening in November will do me fine!
I remember well the night I fell head over heels in love with City. I'd been going to the matches for a while but I'd never been to a cup game. We drew Norwich City (when they were good) in the league cup. Back then the 1st and I think the 2nd round were 2 leg affairs. We were at home the 1st leg and beat them with our prolific striker Sean Mccarthy bagging a brace. I remember him putting the 2nd one in then sliding towards the fans on his knees. What a night! I'd never seen the ground so full or heard it so loud. Back then it was a huge standing kop and the atmos was amazing!
For the record we lost the away leg and went out of the cup but you know, that's football!

 

[tangerinedream]

Too true, hard work and determination. Ipswich too a few years back.

Ipswich finished fifth and got into the Eufa not the European cup irc.

 

[tangerinedream]

Who said you need to spend money. Wenger has done it on a shoe string and continues to do so. It is a matter of belief. Leeds under peter ridsdale tried to go to the 'next level' by buying their way there and got caught. This isn't a judgement on the board but there is a right and wrong way of doing things. It is easy to talk on hindsight, but the team on the back of one CL semi final shouldn't have splashed the cash. Liverpool won the CL but as a supporter I'm under no illusions about how good we are. We finished 3rd a point behind Manu, some of our fans are talking of winning it this time around, I say they should open another bottle and stay in bed.
West Ham are a selling club, should they reverse that trend the sky is the limit. They finished 9th, but they are a top 6 side. Spurs brought in an ageing Edgar davids and all the talk is of a midfield engine which rocketed them into 5th spot. Remember they were unfortunate not to get 4th and a champions league place. Some might argue it was a matter of belief, Arsenal showed they had it. Although otto rehhagel proves the point by taking Greece all the way, no big names, no history. Just hard work and team ethic.

I would hardly describe the 18million they spend on Reyes as typical of 'a shoestring' budget. Wenger is undeniably canny, but I think their players will be being reimbursed very nicely thankyou. They earn enough from champions league reevenue not to be a selling club.

Spurs too have and continue to spend large amounts of money - Not as much as Chelsea, but still far, far more than say Wolves. West Ham will not become a top 4 side anytime soon - I'm pretty sure of that. Also, as they finished 9th they are a top 9 side, not a top 6 side. I also feel the need to remind everyone that for all their merits in the cup final, they didn't actually win it.

I really think you are kidding yourself with the notion of a competitve 'premier' division. Perhaps thats another thread eh?

To get back to the point of the thread, as Johnnyd1798 points out, love was truly born with two stunning Phil Horner goals against an Ossie Ardiles managed West Brom side and a bouncing south paddock.

 

[muser]

Yes our discussion is for another thread, my point if I can return to the off topic sideshow is that the standards have risen in the premiership not that the competitiveness is necessarily there. 15 years ago everyone was playing long ball and back passes to the keeper. Johnny makes a wonderful point in that he would rather his club stay away from the bright lights.
His view are synonymous with many lower league supporters. Success is often frowned upon, how on earth can you change the status quo if the majority crave failure.

 

[tangerinedream]

Yes our discussion is for another thread, my point if I can return to the off topic sideshow is that the standards have risen in the premiership not that the competitiveness is necessarily there. 15 years ago everyone was playing long ball and back passes to the keeper. Johnny makes a wonderful point in that he would rather his club stay away from the bright lights.
His view are synonymous with many lower league supporters. Success is often frowned upon, how on earth can you change the status quo if the majority crave failure.

It's nothing to do with the attitude of fans like johnny though is it? Would you acknowledge that the distribution of wealth within the game is disproportionately in favour of the already succesful? Which breeds the stagnancy we know have?

 

[muser]

It's nothing to do with the attitude of fans like johnny though is it? Would you acknowledge that the distribution of wealth within the game is disproportionately in favour of the already succesful? Which breeds the stagnancy we know have?

That is true, but money doesn't necessarily buy you success. Ask inter milan.
Chelsea under claudio ranieri couldn't win anything in his last season despite an open cheque book, though the nucleus for the current side is his.
4th spot in the premiership isn't guaranteed to any of the teams that have occupied that position over recent years.
Wenger once said that team try harder against Arsenal, whereas they will capitulate against the likes of Man U.
It has alot to do with johnny and the prevailing attitude that success is inherently pernicious, this is comunicated in poor performances (whether it be on the pitch or elsewhere). I see it as pervasive attitude in society.

 

[tangerinedream]

That is true, but money doesn't necessarily buy you success. Ask inter milan.
Chelsea under claudio ranieri couldn't win anything in his last season despite an open cheque book, though the nucleus for the current side is his.
4th spot in the premiership isn't guaranteed to any of the teams that have occupied that position over recent years.
Wenger once said that team try harder against Arsenal, whereas they will capitulate against the likes of Man U.
It has alot to do with johnny and the prevailing attitude that success is inherently bad, this is comunicated in poor performances (whether it be on the pitch or elsewhere). I see it as pervasive attitude in society.

I have already acknowledged that - Find me a succesful side that don't spend money in the premiership. Of course an open cheque book doesn't by you the title, just second place and that amounts to the same thing really.

The attitude of johnny as a Bradford fan is something you as a liverpool fan will never, ever understand.

 

[jonnyd1978]

The attitude of johnny as a Bradford fan is something you as a liverpool fan will never, ever understand.

Correctamundo!

Now look here! I'm not saying I'd be unhappy if we made it back to "the promised land", I'm sure you'd be happy yoursen tangerine! (if it can happen to Bradford it can happen to Blackpool!) I'm just saying I'd be so cautious and sceptical. I look at teams like Bolton and I see that that could easily be Bradford or something similar. Is it worth it though? You have to sell a bit of your soul at least to make it in the big leagues. That's as a fan and a club. That's why I sometimes think it's easier to stay as a nonentity shitty football club who'll never amount to anything more than a surprise win in the league cup!

 

[muser]

I have already acknowledged that - Find me a succesful side that don't spend money in the premiership. Of course an open cheque book doesn't by you the title, just second place and that amounts to the same thing really.

The attitude of johnny as a Bradford fan is something you as a liverpool fan will never, ever understand.

If this is an irrational amour towards a club then no I don't understand it. Not everything is about success, but it has to be a factor or the club would go out of existence. Being the perennial underachiever has a certain charm, johnny is saying that he wouldn't mind his club flirted with a play off spot now and again. Picture the scenario, Bradford on the last day of the season is 1-0 up against preston, as it stands they will qualify for a spot in the play offs. Johnny will be biting his nails and hoping preston stuff them.
Apart from chelsea who actually spend silly money each season. Man U built their success, so did we to a degree. Blackburn paid for theirs but couldn't sustain it and that was due to a huge slice of luck. Leeds played rubbish under wilkinson and still won 91/92. Ipswich under robinson was a force that rocked our juggernaut.

 

[tangerinedream]

Apart from chelsea who actually spend silly money each season. Man U built their success, so did we to a degree. Blackburn paid for theirs but couldn't sustain it and that was due to a huge slice of luck. Leeds played rubbish under wilkinson and still won 91/92. Ipswich under robinson was a force that rocked our juggernaut.

Ipswich 'rocked the juggernaut' - why?

 

[tangerinedream]

Correctamundo!

Now look here! I'm not saying I'd be unhappy if we made it back to "the promised land", I'm sure you'd be happy yoursen tangerine! (if it can happen to Bradford it can happen to Blackpool!) I'm just saying I'd be so cautious and sceptical. I look at teams like Bolton and I see that that could easily be Bradford or something similar. Is it worth it though? You have to sell a bit of your soul at least to make it in the big leagues. That's as a fan and a club. That's why I sometimes think it's easier to stay as a nonentity shitty football club who'll never amount to anything more than a surprise win in the league cup!

and as a liverpool fan, one of 'the hallowed godlike teams of television revenue' muser has never really known anything other than the corporate soulless reality, (dunno how old he/she is or how often they go to Anfield) so he/she can't understand how there is actually another side to the game. He's also never ever going to have to worry about his club going to the wall let alone going trophyless for too long.
Still, better to give out patronising lectures about 'attitudes' to supporters of 'the little clubs' eh? - Still speechless about the line 'it's not about money it's about belief!'

 

[muser]

Ipswich 'rocked the juggernaut' - why?

I think it was in 82/3 they won the league title and many were saying (media) that they could surplant us and create a legacy of their own. Robinson played down their chances of success, while (I assume) remaining confident.

 

[tangerinedream]

I think it was in 82/3 they won the league title and many were saying (media) that they could surplant us and create a legacy of their own. Robinson played down their chances of success, while (I assume) remaining confident.

You mean Robson?

I think you won the league in 83 - Did you not do three in a row in 82,83,84? I'll check this... - What happened with Ipswich is a perfect example of why the premiership is flawed now. - A 'provincial' side, a reasonable investment in talent and a top class manager = almost league title. (worked for ipswich, Derby, Forest, nearly Watford in a short space of time) Nowadays that gets you about 14th if your lucky enough to get through all the teams on parachute payments and stuff and get there in the first place.

There is no way that a team such as Ipswich could emulate that now, no matter how good the manager or the prudence of the board or the 'positive thinking attitudes' of their fans - do you accept that?

EDIT
82-83

http://www.statto.com/leagues/?id=1&yr=112

80=81

http://www.statto.com/teams/?id=237&yr=110 (Ipswich came second)

T

 

[muser]

and as a liverpool fan, one of 'the hallowed godlike teams of television revenue' muser has never really known anything other than the corporate soulless reality, (dunno how old he/she is or how often they go to Anfield) so he/she can't understand how there is actually another side to the game. He's also never ever going to have to worry about his club going to the wall let alone going trophyless for too long.
Still, better to give out patronising lectures about 'attitudes' to supporters of 'the little clubs' eh?

This diatribe is rolled out every time someone puts a question to someone from a lower division. Have charlton or bolton become souless corporate entities? I purposely being dense on the matter of supporting your local club. It obviously invokes emotions that supporting one of the bigger team can never do. I have a soft spot for leyton orient (who have recently been promoted) since I was a child and will keep an eye out for them. Barry hearns said it was the best sporting achievement he has been involved in.
He apologised to frank bruno, steve davis before making the comment. Leyton orient have been done over twice in recent years in play off finals, once to blackpool and the other being scunthorpe.
Who could begrudge them their moment and all it brings.
I bet you leeds supporters thought their club couldn't go to the wall or that they would be relegated from the premiership. Coventry\southampton were always flirting with relegation but ask any of their supporters and they never thought it would happen.

 

[Bomber]

They're the greatest team in football the world has ever seen

Should have gone to Specsavers

No but seriously they wear Red & White Stripes and live just up the road from me !

 

[muser]

You mean Robson?

I think you won the league in 83 - Did you not do three in a row in 82,83,84? I'll check this... - What happened with Ipswich is a perfect example of why the premiership is flawed now. - A 'provincial' side, a reasonable investment in talent and a top class manager = almost league title. (worked for ipswich, Derby, Forest, nearly Watford in a short space of time) Nowadays that gets you about 14th if your lucky enough to get through all the teams on parachute payments and stuff and get there in the first place.

There is no way that a team such as Ipswich could emulate that now, no matter how good the manager or the prudence of the board or the 'positive thinking attitudes' of their fans - do you accept that?

EDIT
82-83

http://www.statto.com/leagues/?id=1&yr=112

80=81

http://www.statto.com/teams/?id=237&yr=110 (Ipswich came second)

T

You got me, just did a check and it was FA cup honours 77/78 and an UEFA cup in 80/81

 

[inflatable jesus]

It's a good question and one that's still tough to answer, or at least to answer well.

When you grow up as a Catholic in Glasgow, being a Celtic supporter is something you have little control over. You'll usually know all the words to the songs before you have any idea what they mean.

Later on it becomes a big part of your identity, for some people it becomes their community and their family. I don't know why, but being a Celtic supporter means much more to me than being Scottish and a million times more than being British. If I thought I could get away with listing my nationality as 'Celtic supporter' on forms then I would.

But then Celtic is bigger than me and it's way bigger than the whole Irish-Catholic thing. It's just something that a lot of people believe in for a whole load of different reasons. But when you're at Celtic park and you come out into the stands for the first time and you see that big sea of Green and White, it makes you feel part of something special. Even if you don't know exactly what that special thing is.

Everyones needs something a bit daft to believe in.

 

[strung out]

Muser, I think you're getting things mixed up. Fans of lower league clubs don't hate success. What's the point in supporting a team unless you want them to win? What many lower league fans know all too well is that success comes at a price. If someone was to offer my club a place in the top flight with the allowance that my club would remain exactly the same, I'd bite their hand off. If however, this place in the top flight meant that admission prices rose, that greed took over from passion as one of the main motivations of the club, that my seat in the stands (for of course I wouldn't be able to stand on the terrace any more) was taken by someone who had supported the club all of two minutes, that supporting my club was seen as something of a fashion statement, etc etc, I'd tell them to stick their place in the top flight where the sun doesn't shine and happily watch my team plug away in the bottom two divisions enjoying the brief moments of success when they occur.

This is what price supporting a club in the top flight has. I've met many a lifelong fan of one of the top premiership clubs saying that they envy us lower league clubs for not having any of the bullshit that comes with premiership football. Just look at some of the fans of Wimbledon, they set their own club up from scratch rather than see their league club transformed by the evils of money and greed.

 

[muser]

My argument exactly, what is the point of supporting a club if you only want it to languish in relegation battles and mid table mediocrity. If you are a parent, your son or daughter will one day become independent of you. You are allowed to reminiscence on what went before, but ultimately you want them to meet new challenges, meet different people and discover the world through their eyes. A club is like that, it will always be your club, exactly as YOU remember it. The prawn sandwich lot are supporters too. Some of them come in to rescue clubs from bankruptcy, then announce they were life long supporters.
The emphasis has being about you the supporter and what is best for your interests. What about the club you profess to love.

 

[tangerinedream]

This diatribe is rolled out every time someone puts a question to someone from a lower division. Have charlton or bolton become souless corporate entities? I purposely being dense on the matter of supporting your local club. It obviously invokes emotions that supporting one of the bigger team can never do. I have a soft spot for leyton orient (who have recently been promoted) since I was a child and will keep an eye out for them. Barry hearns said it was the best sporting achievement he has been involved in.
He apologised to frank bruno, steve davis before making the comment. Leyton orient have been done over twice in recent years in play off finals, once to blackpool and the other being scunthorpe.
Who could begrudge them their moment and all it brings.
I bet you leeds supporters thought their club couldn't go to the wall or that they would be relegated from the premiership. Coventry\southampton were always flirting with relegation but ask any of their supporters and they never thought it would happen.

I have a 'soft spot' for Everton, perhaps that explains why we argue so much!

It's not a diatribe, I honestly don't think you understand what it means to support a lower league team and have the top of the tree, three aim, the goal (i.e winning the whole pyramid) put so far out of reach that you know your team cannot achieve it, however brief it may be. How depressing would it be for you if you knew all Liverpool could ever realistically hope for was a season (or two if they are exceptionally comitted and wise) in the lower reaches of the premier division.

Yes, Charlton and Bolton offer hope, but to be honest - the hope of 'one day you might flirt with an occasional Uefa finish' isn't what it should be. You said yourself, Bolton need to take the next step (as do West Ham, Charlton, Wigan etc) - it's very possible they won't do it. Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea etc would regard finishing 8th as a disaster, the rest of the league can only aspire to that.

I'd love the Pool to be in the premiership, as I'm sure tedix would love the Gas to be and Johnny the Bantams but we know our clubs would have to go a fundemental change of character and go from being largely community funded (i.e, ticket sales and merchandise) to corporate multinationals to have a hope in hell of getting in their. Once in, how on earth would we bridge the gap of funding between the European competitors and ourselves?

We've just had an investment of 4.5 million over 5 years, which will hopefully give us a shout at championship football - You get more than that for failing in the group stages of the champions league which you are pretty much a shoe in for every season.

It's not that we are adverse to success or against celebrating success, it's simply that I do not and never will understand why that success is celebrated with financial reward which therefore makes it harder for the other teams to challenge for success and perpetuates the status quo.

Both you and I know that if the champions league qualifiers from England were Charlton, West Brom, Bolton and Wigan that would be a disaster for the advertisers. Which I think goes someway to explain why things are the way they are.

I do not object to the idea that some clubs are bigger than others, some teams attract bigger crowds, fair enough, but I think you and I can both accept the game is now run for the television market, ensuring the big teams are on telly and in the champions league season after season.

As a Liverpool fan, obviosly that doesn't bother you and I can understand why, but as a lower league fan and as a neutral it bothers me to the point where my interest stops with the championship.

Two questions

1) - Is it fair (on a SPORTING level) - that a team in the premiership gets 15 million plus whilst a team in the championship gets a couple of million?* even though only one position may seperate them in the league?

2) - Do you also accept, to the outsider the premiership may appear boring and stale with the same teams competing year after year.

*unsure of the actual figures, would appreciate it if someone could tell me the breakdown of TV revenue by division for the forthcoming season.

 

[strung out]

what is the point of supporting a club if you only want it to languish in relegation battles and mid table mediocrity?

I don't though. I want my team to do well and challenge for honours every season whether it be the fourth division title, the second division title, the ldv vans trophy or a decent run in the fa cup. What I don't want is for my club to be turned into a multinational corporation that values its shareholders over the fans, that values money over entertainment. If that's the price of succeeding in the premiership, I don't want it for my club. (at least, not season after season after season.)

 

[muser]

Originally posted by tedix

What I don't want is for my club to be turned into a multinational corporation that values its shareholders over the fans, that values money over entertainment

Have charlton or bolton lost their grass root support by being in the premiership, have Arsenal? Spurs even.

 

[tangerinedream]

Originally posted by tedix

What I don't want is for my club to be turned into a multinational corporation that values its shareholders over the fans, that values money over entertainment

Have charlton or bolton lost their grass root support by being in the premiership, have Arsenal? Spurs even.

Yes. The average age of a season ticket holder in the premiership is rising, those clubs included - suggesting that young people in the environs cannot afford to access the football club. Many premier league sides don't sell or only sell very limited numbers of matchday tickets so if you can't afford a season ticket - tough.

I havn't got a link, but I think I read that in either WSC or a David Conn book.

 

[muser]

Tangerinedream, your points are valid. But tell me this is there so much difference in quality between 4th and 12 placed teams. Liverpool in the 90's got to see little or none of the money you speak of. We gave Houllier 120m and he gave us 6 trophies, one of them an FA cup (very jammy to get it too)
and an Uefa cup, we never even looked like getting our hands on the title, even in the year we came second. You talk as though man u and arsenal spend silly money. Reyes was Arsenal highest acquisition. Wenger is a vastly better version of harry redknapp - a wheeler and a dealer. but the difference is Wenger spots talents and moulds it and has the determination to win.
Right now in the premiership roughly everyone apart from chelsea is spending roughly equal amounts of money.

 

[muser]

I don't though. I want my team to do well and challenge for honours every season whether it be the fourth division title, the second division title, the ldv vans trophy or a decent run in the fa cup. What I don't want is for my club to be turned into a multinational corporation that values its shareholders over the fans, that values money over entertainment. If that's the price of succeeding in the premiership, I don't want it for my club. (at least, not season after season after season.)

You mean barcelona fans are greedy, corporate pigs for also being shareholders in their club?