What in the name of holy fuck? (New Oklahoma abortion law)

[john x]

i cant defend those who are not.

I'm not sure you have a choice. The Catholic church is a dogmatic hierarchy with you as a 'dumb pawn' (no offence meant) in it. You believe and you obey. You do not question.

john x

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Why should i ? to you anyway, is that in the rules like ? lol . Look,the catholic church is always getting criticised. Hardly surprising either is it, the way theyve handled things behind closed doors, THEY are a disgrace. NOT all catholics are evil believe it or not, some of us are ok , i cant defend those who are not. Theres your answer.

I know lots of catholics who are ok, even served at church when I was young (and didn't get touched). I still don't get how lovely people like my Mum can read about everything that has gone on and still support the organisation. Not something I think I could bear to ask, but it does fascinate me. If you believed in the organisation that much wouldn't you be making more noise about it?

 

[Lubolouise]

I know lots of catholics who are ok, even served at church when I was young (and didn't get touched). I still don't get how lovely people like my Mum can read about everything that has gone on and still support the organisation. Not something I think I could bear to ask, but it does fascinate me. If you believed in the organisation that much wouldn't you be making more noise about it?

I cant explain it, it's like footy, you love a certain club and whatever it does to you after highs lows etc you still give it your heart. I could never walk away from it or get myself off to support some other club that was doing well.
Ive gone to the same church for years, even when i moved away i still bombed down the motorway to get to mass at my church. Its like a family. Despite what people think,we dont really think about what the Pope and the vatican are up to,we dont spend our lives worrying about it. I like to think i do my bit to help a few people , i keep my family and freinds in my prayers and thats it really.I work, i go out, i like a drink, and im just , ermm ordinary lol. I dont agree with certain things that the church does or has done but its not as if i can do much about it, the Pope isnt that bothered about having a private audience with me to even listen, and most of our local priests are more interested in getting money for the roof fixed and finding the time to visit the sick , they dont concern themselves with it and i dont either. I will admit that listening to some of the crappy comments people make brings out the fierce defence all of things catholic, if someone attacks something you love you defend it, but i take deep breaths and try and laugh it off, whats the point of arguing. I dont think im brianwashed or dumb i havnt always followed the rules, and im no saint , but what can i say... im catholic, im happy with it.

 

[Lubolouise]

I'm not sure you have a choice. The Catholic church is a dogmatic hierarchy with you as a 'dumb pawn' (no offence meant) in it. You believe and you obey. You do not question.

john x

Lol, i question plenty ,i dont always get the answers id like though. By the way, we all answer to someone john , bet you do aswell.

 

[Brainaddict]

I do however think it is to easy, my mates 14 year old had an abortion without her mum even knowing and it caused heartbreak to her and her family.

What really caused the 'heartbreak' though? Just the abortion itself? Or a hysterical reaction to the idea of abortion among several people involved? Or how about the breakdown of communications between mother and daughter? Perhaps to other people with different attitudes and more open relationships the abortion could have brought them closer together? Just a thought.


I don't think you're brainwashed or dumb to feel loyalty to the catholic church. We all feel attached to things we grew up with, like the A Team or rhubarb and custard sweets. Sometimes there are good reasons to move on though. Rhubarb and custard sweets are fattening. Nothing wrong with the A team obviously.

 

[Louloubelle]

When does life begin then?

According to the pediatrician and psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott
"There is no such thing as a baby, there is a baby and someone."

The point he was making is that the helplessness of the infant and his total dependence on his mother (or other primary carer) as well as the infant's rudimentary and primitive state of consciousness, means that a baby as a seperate individual entity does not really exist.

http://www.naturalchild.org/james_kimmel/human_baby.html

This is a perspective that many early civilisations shared. In ancient Greece and Rome infanticide was an accepted method of birth control, although the mothers were (IMMIC - I did read up on this at one point) mostly enslaved women including prostitutes or mothers who had delivered babies considered to be deformed.

In one Roman sewer, underneath a bathhouse (brothel) the remains of over 100 infants were found, mostly males.

The Egyptians were known for their abhorrence of infanticide and were known to rescue babies abandoned by other peoples.

I suppose that the point I'm making is that there are complex cultural determinations as to the age at which an entity becomes a "person". Depending on the culture and the time in history that time could be as early as conception or as late as some undetermined time in childhood.

 

[JWH]

Enlighten us, at what point, in your view, does a foetus become a human being?

I believe that in E&W law, life begins when the X takes its first breath; up to that point, it's not possible to assault the foetus, just the mother.

I suspect that that legal definition is not going to be much help here...

 

[Azrael]

I believe that in E&W law, life begins when the X takes its first breath; up to that point, it's not possible to assault the foetus, just the mother.

I suspect that that legal definition is not going to be much help here...

The Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 deals with assaults on viable (capable of being born alive) fetuses. An offence called child destruction. I believe the Offences Against the Person Act, 1861, deals with unviable fetuses aborted outside the provisions of the Abortion Act, 1967, but you'd have to check with a lawyer.

On the Oaklahoma law, it's a serious violation of doctor-patient confidentiality. I realise that Roe v. Wade is infuriating for anti-abotion activists, and they're forced to chip at the edges until it's overturned, but this law is the wrong way to go about it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Naming and shaming is wrong, it will do nothing to stop girls having abortions imo. I do however think it is to easy, my mates 14 year old had an abortion without her mum even knowing and it caused heartbreak to her and her family. i dont agree with abortion unless its extreme circumstances. i feel uncomfortable about binning innocent babys just because we can.
Mind you i am catholic, so what do i know we're all nuts

Um, as a (good, bad or indifferent) Catholic, surely you realise that according to your Church's doctrines no baby is "innocent", and that baptism is necessary to absolve them of Original Sin?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Enlighten us, at what point, in your view, does a foetus become a human being?

When it becomes self-aware.
Sorry, are you wearing your Scots prod hat today, or your plastic Jew yarmulke?

 

[ViolentPanda]

oki doki, This is how it works in my world.
Man woman fall into lust / love or a quick bang whatever Lol , Anyway , jiggy jiggy FfIRE !!! woman and man create a little person, after a few weeks in the womb this little person is developing, beating heart little fingers etc etc. i thought this was how the world grew, im missing something then eh ? tis just a foetus and why should we care then
by the way i realise that in some circumstances abortion is the only answer for some girls so im not anti abortion , i would just like to see less abortion, more respect for an innocent little life we dont agree i know, but thats fine

1) Man and woman doing jiggy jiggy should use contraception, despite what wizened Nazi cunt in white dress and his conclave of bitches say.
2) Any sensible person would like to see fewer surgical procedures to terminate foetii. So why not promote the use of effective contraception?
3) No-one is innocent, according to your church, except through the agency of that church, not even the unborn.
4) Please stop being so mimsy, it's puke-inspiring!

 

[Lubolouise]

What really caused the 'heartbreak' though? Just the abortion itself? Or a hysterical reaction to the idea of abortion among several people involved? Or how about the breakdown of communications between mother and daughter? Perhaps to other people with different attitudes and more open relationships the abortion could have brought them closer together? Just a thought.


I don't think you're brainwashed or dumb to feel loyalty to the catholic church. We all feel attached to things we grew up with, like the A Team or rhubarb and custard sweets. Sometimes there are good reasons to move on though. Rhubarb and custard sweets are fattening. Nothing wrong with the A team obviously.

The family are close, open with no hang ups about anything , not religious either in the least bit by the way ! I could understand more what you were saying if it were my family, we'd be whailing and weeping for a thousand years !
After the abortion, child was looking at pictures of terminations and crying and mum spent every minute talking to me and others about how she could have raised that baby.They were grieving.

Lol , thanks for understanding i am not dumb or brainwashed and good on you for giving up the Rhubarb sweets, hope you find the strength to put the A team to bed one day though , i reckon that is a weird attachment, more weird than my attachment to the catholic church infact lol.

 

[Lubolouise]

Um, as a (good, bad or indifferent) Catholic, surely you realise that according to your Church's doctrines no baby is "innocent", and that baptism is necessary to absolve them of Original Sin?

And surely you realise that baptising babies into our faith brings in plenty cash for the vatican to stuff down its knickers. Our beloved popes doc martins dont pay for themselves


You display an interest in our catechism, good for you, heres a bit you missed out. Cant blame you, i would too if i were on a sarcastic rant.

On abortion our church teaches this ... Human life must be respected and protected absolutley from the moment of conception.From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognised as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.
You shall NOT kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
Life must be protected with the upmost care from the moment of conception. -abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

 

[Espresso]

The Catholic Church also says that you should only ever have sex with the person you're married to and that you should never use artificial contraception.

The day I meet a Catholic who actually follows that particular rule is the day I'll start listening to what that Catholic says about abortion. And I was brought up in the Catholic faith, so I know a lot of nominal Catholics.

Most of those who are my age are in the same boat as me. Certainly not virgins when they get married in church, strangers to Confession and definitely not averse to the pill or condoms. When kids come along, they start back to the Sunday routine of Mass; really so as the kids will get in a good school.
That's what Catholicism seems to mean in the Western world these days. It's a pick and mix religion. That's why it gets such a slating - no one actually embraces the whole kit and caboodle.

 

[Santino]

That's what Catholicism seems to mean in the Western world these days. It's a pick and mix religion. That's why it gets such a slating - no one actually embraces the whole kit and caboodle.

You think it's that reason rather than the suffering and death caused by preaching against condoms, the institutionalised child abuse and the persecution of unmarried mothers?

 

[Espresso]

You think it's that reason rather than the suffering and death caused by preaching against condoms, the institutionalised child abuse and the persecution of unmarried mothers?

You did see the part where I said "in the Western world these days" did you?
Excellent.

And you do know where the Western world is, do you?
Fantastic.

Can you show me a country in the Western world today where there are still Magdalen laundries, Catholic run orphanages and industrial schools or where you can't buy a condom?

 

[Santino]

You did see the part where I said "in the Western world these days" did you?
Excellent.

And you do know where the Western world is, do you?
Fantastic.

Can you show me a country in the Western world today where there are still Magdalen laundries, Catholic run orphanages and industrial schools or where you can't buy a condom?

Do you think that people only base their opinion of a vastly influential institution with a global reach on their experience of its activities in their immediate vicinity?

Notwithstanding the Church's institutionalised child abuse in the form of the institution protecting priests who have sexually molested children in Europe and America.

 

[JWH]

The Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 deals with assaults on viable (capable of being born alive) fetuses. An offence called child destruction. I believe the Offences Against the Person Act, 1861, deals with unviable fetuses aborted outside the provisions of the Abortion Act, 1967, but you'd have to check with a lawyer.

Mmm, interesting. It's a weird ragbag of terminology: both infant and child, destruction but not murder, criminalises destruction of a foetus but not if it wasn't viable anyway...

 

[ViolentPanda]

And surely you realise that baptising babies into our faith brings in plenty cash for the vatican to stuff down its knickers. Our beloved popes doc martins dont pay for themselves


You display an interest in our catechism, good for you, heres a bit you missed out. Cant blame you, i would too if i were on a sarcastic rant.

On abortion our church teaches this ... Human life must be respected and protected absolutley from the moment of conception.From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognised as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.
You shall NOT kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
Life must be protected with the upmost care from the moment of conception. -abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

With respect, even aside from the supernatural side of your beliefs, the teachings of the Catholic church haven't accorded with either rationality or scientific knowledge for centuries. That people prefer to submit to living in willful ignorance in the name of "faith", to agreeing to ask forgiveness and pay penance for their actions to atone for what you people call "sins" or to killing in the name of G-d, merely highlights the ridiculousness and hypocrisy of Christianity, as well as of any other religion that uses the idea of religion to fig-leaf stupidity.
You mention an "inviolable right".
Set forth by whom?
Your omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent G-d?
You see, rights are a social construct formulated to foster social inclusiveness and cohesion, not a "gift from G-d" or a peremptory order from a sky-pixie.

 

[Espresso]

Do you think that people only base their opinion of a vastly influential institution with a global reach on their experience of its activities in their immediate vicinity?

Notwithstanding the Church's institutionalised child abuse in the form of the institution protecting priests who have sexually molested children in Europe and America.

I suppose they must do. Or at least some must. Because if they didn't there would be no Catholics at all anywhere in the entire continent of Europe.

Most people do not look any further than what directly affects them. That doesn't just go for religion, it applies to all aspects of the lives we lead today. Who really considers what goes on in the factories where computer components and and Wiis and jeans and trainers are made? Not too many of us.
Ideologically, anyone can say it's just terrible what goes on in foreign countries, but when it comes to not buying a new digital camera or a sound card or a new iPod or the £2 Primark tee shirts, that ideology goes out the window. We can all say it's terrible that the rainforests are being cut down to grow palm oil, yet if we're all so aghast at that, just who is it who's buying the end products?

You won't get any disagreement from me that the Catholic Church has fucked up a lot of people in a lot of places for years. And it still does it in a lot of places today. No argument at all.

The only point I was making is that it is a ridiculous nonsense for a Catholic who lives here to decry abortion on the basis of their faith, unless they're also sticking religiously ( ) to the rest of the teachings of said church.

 

[Lubolouise]

With respect, even aside from the supernatural side of your beliefs, the teachings of the Catholic church haven't accorded with either rationality or scientific knowledge for centuries. That people prefer to submit to living in willful ignorance in the name of "faith", to agreeing to ask forgiveness and pay penance for their actions to atone for what you people call "sins" or to killing in the name of G-d, merely highlights the ridiculousness and hypocrisy of Christianity, as well as of any other religion that uses the idea of religion to fig-leaf stupidity.
You mention an "inviolable right".
Set forth by whom?
Your omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent G-d?
You see, rights are a social construct formulated to foster social inclusiveness and cohesion, not a "gift from G-d" or a peremptory order from a sky-pixie.

I love 'you people' that let me know how crackers i am. I believe in a sky pixie lol , who knows i probably do i think you have more hangups than i do about it. I respect what your saying though and even agree with some of it. I dont have time for a lifetime debate on message boards, its not my thing, i have to move on, it's in my travelling blood. You keep believing in all that you can see and i'll keep believing in all that i cant see. One of us will have to be right, surely lol.

ViolentPanda
Good Luck.

 

[TomUS]

i'll keep believing in all that i cant see.

Isn't this a form of mental illness?