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What does 'Proper' non-piscine Socialism involve?

If the system we live under is characterised by the concentration of the ownership of the means of production in a few private hands, who use that to exploit the rest, then those with no property (ie, the majority) are the ones with the interest, and therefore the potential, to say 'we don't need to run socity in this way, let's produce life's needs according to what we need not what makes a profit for a few.'

At the moment a lot of them are "bought off", not by wealth, but by petty authority and privelege over others with no property. Until a serious change in attitude occurs, we're unlikely to see any move towards reform let alone revolution.
 
Because the convergence of political parties the world over into a a mass of market-serving consumption economies has only happened recently, so while "choice" was limited, it was "real" in the sense that different theoretical and policy alternatives were offered as solutions to problems, working people stood more of a chance of attaining their goals. Now we've moved toward no clear differentiation between political parties, except in their history, all solutions are based on a belief that neo-liberal economics are "the only game in town", and the political world (developing or developed) is returning to a mindset "fringe" politics are increasingly painted as "dangerous", as "insurrectionary", even when they're not.
I agree to an extent. There is less polarisation in politics just now (tho it'd be a rose tinted mistake to see the past in the UK as anything but dominated by different types of capitalist parties).

But, I see this as a passing phase. We've been in a long boom here, but the realities of capitalism are brutal for many around the world and may well become so for us here too within the next couple fo decades. In fact i firmly believe the realities of this system will be revealed in crisis and war and that there needs to be a political current committed to getting rid of this system

(It's a strange irony that the demise of the anti-working class fortress that was the USSR has contributed massively in ideological terms to the demise of ideas of social justice globally)
 
I wouldn't even describe myself as a socialist. I'm pretty dead-centre on economic thinking and I'm an extreme libertarian on the freedom scale. I just believe in letting people live as they see fit whilst controlling business to protect people against the very real problems of capitalism/free-marketism. And yet even that pretty half-hearted ideology of live-and-let-live seems to be lost in a sea of support for extreme state control of individuals whilst allowing free rein to business these days.

Do you realise that that view would be considered outrageously leftwing by today's mainstream standards?

I've said it before, but the manifesto the conservatives won on in 1979 would probably be considered too leftwing for any mainstream political party now. Scary indictment of how far it's all gone, huh?
 
I think it is a problem that is unfixable within any one lifetime though, VP. The fact is that people are a product of their environment and this environment is authoritarian and paranoid.
I don't disagree, in fact the logic of neo-lib "free market" economics thrives in a climate that makes people turn inward, so there's almost (if, like me, you're a cynic about power) an economic imperative for govts "owned" by capital to close down alternatives to a consumption-based lifestyle and it's accompanying politics of self.
I also agree that a solution, of whatever scale, will take lots of time and commitment, factors which rule out any engagement by those concerned with the accumulation and exercise of revolutionary power, at least in my experience. :)
The overwhelming majority of those I have casual contact with -- at work, casual acquaintances and so on -- buy into this. There are very few that actually question it. Talking the issues through helps immeasurably, but you have a minority voice with occassional contact versus a constant stream of media buy-in to the larger environmental norm (exacerbated by the fact that paranoid authoritarianism sells papers, so they are encouraged to print lots of it). The problem grows worse, not better.
And yet, even if we are "a lone voice crying in the wilderness", a drop of water constantly dripping on the granite of media opinion, we still need to do so, because to withdraw from any engagement against power has the same effect as actively participating with power.
For me, a great example of the "dripping water" action is the shift, over 20 years, of my dad from a tory-voting aspirational "dragged myself up by the boot-straps" member of the lower middle classes, to a socially-concerned active member of his community, not because circumstances have forced him to be, but because he's been fortunate enough to be exposed to people (friends and relatives) who challenged the version of reality he'd bought into.
I can only see it changing via some kind of extreme event that causes a sudden and widespread seismic shift in attitudes, which I am not hopeful for.
I can understand that, especially as "extreme events" are as likely to forth reactionary responses as revolutionary or evolutionary ideas.
Frankly, years of being battered by the march of authoritarianism has made me give up, in many ways. I used to be considerably more politically active (as did my whole family) -- now we all seem to be worn down by it. I'm not proud of it, but I do these days seem to be increasingly restricted to contributing money for other people to do the good work for me, whilst I just concentrate on me and mine.
All any of us can do is what we can, when we can.
It doesn't help that I live and work in places that are filled with reactionary right-wing types, of course. I spend so much of my conversation with people arguing about issues where it just seems like me against a world of petty-minded bigotted authoriarian free-marketeers. It's one thing to be in a crowd where you have moral support for your views. It's quite another to be a lone defender of the faith. It wears you down.
The current (large) crop of reactionaries are pretty much the logical (and, I suspect, planned for) result of Thatcherism, of detaching social conscience from governmental practice. If you're not reared in an environment where concern for others extends beyond the immediate (one's family and close friends), then "selfishness" (in the broad sense of the word) is an obvious result, very much "there is no such thing as society, only communities of individuals" made flesh.
That's what motivates me, though. That's what stops me from being worn down. The thought that as long as react against rather than comply with that way of thinking, that it can't be properly realised, the ideas of community and solidarity can't be erased.
 
I used to think it could. I used to have idealism. Now I just have arguments.
Arguments aren't necessarily a bad thing, though. :)
I now think that large social forces shape majority political thought, not individual argument. Social forces are currently lending themselves to paranoid authoritarianism and nationalism, so that is the prevalent wind.
I'd kind of approach that from a different angle and say that rather than "large social forces" shaping "majority political thought", that a minority of asocial (insofar as they are disengaged from general social concerns) forces play a large part in shaping majority political thought through the media, using variants of Bernays' tactics, and in doing so set up an amenable political climate for their economic imperative to thrive.
 
In other words we live in a capitalist world, and there is no political voice offering an alternative, only by degree, although people the world over do keep coming up against the brutality of this system every day and strugle against it in one way or another. That's why I think there needs to be a new socialist party that can offer an alternative, and I think the need for that will get greater.
The problem with many socialisms (although not necessarily you "new socialism") is that historically, given the perceived need for an accommodation of capital (although in an attenuated form), capital is provided with the tools to undermine and/or manipulate the state.
I mean it in the philosophical sense, meaning ideas that are not rooted in an understanding of material reality.
:)
In the case in point I think it is idealist to imagine that people are capable of being won *en masse* to ideas of thoroughgoing social justice in 'normal' times.
I agree, it is idealistic, but then again, I think that we're plowing two very different furrows here. I'm plowing a slow furrow that says "change yourself, change your environment, set an example, and see what follows", while you're plowing a furrow that depends on the idea of social instability as a precursor to "revolutionary" political change.
While I think that your ideas are more likely, I think mine more ethical.
I think it'll take great economic and political shocks to reveal the nature of this system to most people - tho at the same time there will need to be a political voice based on an understanding of the system we face and with a political programme to overthrow it
I don't think it's a question of revealing, it's more to do with people being forced to accept what most already know; the costs of the continuation of the current system. We have isolated instances where this happens, but too few people want to acknowledge the totality.
Changing that would change the dynamics completely. Perhaps the financial depression we're being warned about will have some adverse effects for the system that caused it that open more eyes.
 
The problem with many socialisms (although not necessarily you "new socialism") is that historically, given the perceived need for an accommodation of capital (although in an attenuated form), capital is provided with the tools to undermine and/or manipulate the state.
Yep, ie reformist 'socialism'. I think we need a socialism that has worker and community control of production at its very core

I agree, it is idealistic, but then again, I think that we're plowing two very different furrows here. I'm plowing a slow furrow that says "change yourself, change your environment, set an example, and see what follows", while you're plowing a furrow that depends on the idea of social instability as a precursor to "revolutionary" political change.
While I think that your ideas are more likely, I think mine more ethical.
I don't see how the bulk of people will 'change themselves, change their environment' without taking charge of their workplaces and communities and running them for themselves. I doubt we disagree on that. But I think to achieve that we need a socialist party to champion those ideas


I don't think it's a question of revealing, it's more to do with people being forced to accept what most already know; the costs of the continuation of the current system. We have isolated instances where this happens, but too few people want to acknowledge the totality.
Changing that would change the dynamics completely. Perhaps the financial depression we're being warned about will have some adverse effects for the system that caused it that open more eyes.
Perhaps. Who knows how deep this recession will go. And in the medium term the economic power of China/India/Russia are way out of kilter with their political power and that is a situation I can't see remaining. These next couple of decades will be 'interesting' ones
 
Perhaps. Who knows how deep this recession will go. And in the medium term the economic power of China/India/Russia are way out of kilter with their political power and that is a situation I can't see remaining. These next couple of decades will be 'interesting' ones

I suspect 'globalisation' is going to go out of fashion very quickly with its former proponents once they realise its going to be Asian capitalists calling the tune.
 
Whilst I may disagree with both of you, VP and Spion, on a number of issues I wanted to say thank you both for reminding everyone what an online political discussion forum should look like.
 
Whilst I may disagree with both of you, VP and Spion, on a number of issues I wanted to say thank you both for reminding everyone what an online political discussion forum should look like.

Seconded - unlike most political threads that end up as a joke this one began as a joke and turned into an interesting debate!
 
I've said it before, but the manifesto the conservatives won on in 1979 would probably be considered too leftwing for any mainstream political party now. Scary indictment of how far it's all gone, huh?

I'm not sure how relevant a manifesto is tbh..

.....in '79 the Tory manifesto was Heathite one nation toryism, and Thatcher's speech to the press after Callaghan's concession was the 'where there is conflict I bring harmony' bollocks...... the reality was of course an economic & social shift to the right, which wasn't popular, and woud have ended up in one term govt if not for the Falklands & labour's internicine wars.....

... '97 Labour's manifesto was economic competence with a hint of a shift to the left, with social liberalism..... again the reality is a shift to the right, certainly economically, probably with shifting of power to the centre, but with social liberalism on sexual/disability & employment protection legislation... (yes, I am expecting some comments about that...) also an odd contradiction on immigration policies......

The big difference with the US is that they campaign to the right, yet govern to the centre, yet the opposite appears to be true in the UK.... probably a good example would be if a mayoral candidate for NY was 'exposed' as having 5 kids by 3 women, and not married to any of them he would be dead in the water......
 
Yep, ie reformist 'socialism'. I think we need a socialism that has worker and community control of production at its very core.
I think we need a politics per se that has those attributes, and if it's a socialism that's all well and good, but I wouldn't rule out other socially-based ideologies, if they emerged.
I don't see how the bulk of people will 'change themselves, change their environment' without taking charge of their workplaces and communities and running them for themselves. I doubt we disagree on that. But I think to achieve that we need a socialist party to champion those ideas.
And that, my friend, is where we differ. While I'm not opposed to a socialist party doing so, I'm not prepared to support a socialist solution to the exclusion of any other ideas that can be brought to the table, not least because having given my time and money to socialist causes over four decades, I see "us" no closer to an inclusive, community-based socialism than "we" were in the 70s, in fact I believe we're further away. :(
Perhaps. Who knows how deep this recession will go. And in the medium term the economic power of China/India/Russia are way out of kilter with their political power and that is a situation I can't see remaining. These next couple of decades will be 'interesting' ones
Agreed, especially in terms of resources. At present we have oil wars being fought, and water wars on the horizon. In 20 years time we may have grain wars. :(
 
Personally, I don't see any alternative to socialism or communism as a solution. What people will call it is quite another matter. At one time 'social democracy' was the term in vogue, and it's a very apt one if you think about it
 
Personally, I don't see any alternative to socialism or communism as a solution. What people will call it is quite another matter. At one time 'social democracy' was the term in vogue, and it's a very apt one if you think about it
Or at least it would be if the composite definition anyone rational would draw from the use of the two words together actually accorded at all with the meaning politicians give the phrase. :)
 
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