What does 'middle class' mean?
- Thread starter TAE
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Idaho
continuity character
Some glimmers of intelligence amongst the ill-thought-out nonsense and the tedious hectoring.
Class, as it is generally discussed on this board is really just a nonsense. It is a word used to describe a range of different things, and hence divying the whole population into three based on it's ill-definition is going to be as confused and meaningless as this thread is.
Economic class is one thing (skillfully outlined by Mr Spion)
But that has only tenuous connections with class defined by academic background.
Which in turn has loose connections with aspirations, which in turn has looser connections with cultural manners, accent, supermarket you shop in, etc.
These are all just ways of saying you are like me, or unlike me. It's a natural instinct for a pack based ape, such as humans, to have both the desire to clump together in groups and the desire to form a pecking/packing order once in those groups. The upshot is the hopelessly confused muddle that posters come out with frequently on the board.
For the record I have two types of balsamic vinegar and two types of olive oil
Class, as it is generally discussed on this board is really just a nonsense. It is a word used to describe a range of different things, and hence divying the whole population into three based on it's ill-definition is going to be as confused and meaningless as this thread is.
Economic class is one thing (skillfully outlined by Mr Spion)
But that has only tenuous connections with class defined by academic background.
Which in turn has loose connections with aspirations, which in turn has looser connections with cultural manners, accent, supermarket you shop in, etc.
These are all just ways of saying you are like me, or unlike me. It's a natural instinct for a pack based ape, such as humans, to have both the desire to clump together in groups and the desire to form a pecking/packing order once in those groups. The upshot is the hopelessly confused muddle that posters come out with frequently on the board.
For the record I have two types of balsamic vinegar and two types of olive oil
I translated it from the german "Klassenkampf" which I understand to be the conflict between the workers (who want good pay and good working conditions etc) and the company owners (who generally try to spend as little as possible for their staff).Neva said:
In that sense (leaving culture aside for a moment) you could classify the shareholders as one class and all the employees (including non-shareholding management) as another class. I suppose in that context the employees who do own shares (including the directors and self-employed people) would be middle class.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
smokedout said:
What nonsense
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
Of course, if a city is rich enough then it can't possibly have any working class areas...
The Middle class can choose where to live.Can go to a supermarket and do there shopping with out looking at the prices.The middle class do not have to worry about The polish immigrants being exploited and lowering their wages etc.
Middle class do not have to relie on DHSS NHS.
Middle class do not have to relie on DHSS NHS.
Idaho
continuity character
I think this is a reasonable modern take on what constitutes the working class. What it is accepting is that the middle class are now the majority and that wealthier salaried workers are no longer counted as working class.CUMBRIANDRAGON said:
This definition has the working class as just those in low paid, insecure jobs, with poor education and either in council or rented accommodation.
catinthehat
Failed VK = Replicant
The more complex the society the more complex its stratification system. Back in the day we had mainly landowners and peasants - simple. Then the age of industry and its all about your relationship to the means of production - own it = ruling class, manage it = middle class, labour in it = working class. As industry becomes concentrated and conglomerated (globalisation. TNCs etc) it becomes more complex as ownership becomes more fragmented (shareholders, pensions).
Add to that expansion of welfare state - need for more professionals such as nurses, doctors, teachers - and you grow the middle class via some social mobility at the upper end of the working class. Chuck in some Weberian aspects such as power that comes from status, a bit of Bourdeius "Cultural Capital" - status and power that comes from knowledge, chuck in the grey economy (money that comes from crime), the loss of unskilled industry jobs and the accompanying growth in the underclass and you have a pretty complicated mish mash. Though I wouldnt go so far as the postmodern you are what you appear to be cobblers.
Its not simply cash - I know someone with a habit who gets through more cash than anyone else I have ever met but has no job or obvious income - on the other hand I know people living like paupers because they think its a good idea to send their kids to private school.
Some would point to the attitude of either delayed or instant gratification as being important.
Mortgages and credit cards mask peoples real financial position - all things considered I would say the cushion against economic recession would be the thing that is telling. Because of increased levels of debt and home ownership Id think it will be much more so than the 80s - with plenty of people who get classified as being middle class going to the wall in a spectacular way.
So Im settling for those for whom a national recession makes no difference at all due to their ability to diversify and move their finances around globally as the ruling class, those who in a national recession are able ride it out and pick up some decent bargains are middle class - and as ever the vast majority that are screwed by it are working class. Same as it ever was.
Add to that expansion of welfare state - need for more professionals such as nurses, doctors, teachers - and you grow the middle class via some social mobility at the upper end of the working class. Chuck in some Weberian aspects such as power that comes from status, a bit of Bourdeius "Cultural Capital" - status and power that comes from knowledge, chuck in the grey economy (money that comes from crime), the loss of unskilled industry jobs and the accompanying growth in the underclass and you have a pretty complicated mish mash. Though I wouldnt go so far as the postmodern you are what you appear to be cobblers.
Its not simply cash - I know someone with a habit who gets through more cash than anyone else I have ever met but has no job or obvious income - on the other hand I know people living like paupers because they think its a good idea to send their kids to private school.
Some would point to the attitude of either delayed or instant gratification as being important.
Mortgages and credit cards mask peoples real financial position - all things considered I would say the cushion against economic recession would be the thing that is telling. Because of increased levels of debt and home ownership Id think it will be much more so than the 80s - with plenty of people who get classified as being middle class going to the wall in a spectacular way.
So Im settling for those for whom a national recession makes no difference at all due to their ability to diversify and move their finances around globally as the ruling class, those who in a national recession are able ride it out and pick up some decent bargains are middle class - and as ever the vast majority that are screwed by it are working class. Same as it ever was.
Thora
Differently Ethical
I'm not really sure who Alan Sugar is, but does he own the means of production (like a factory)? Does he sell his own labour to survive, or live off the labour of workers?becky p said:
Or, does he not own the means of production, but still have power over workers in terms of hiring and firing? Does something other than selling his labour (like share ownership) account for a significant proportion of his income?
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