What does 'middle class' mean?

[_angel_]

Middle class isn't too tricky to define. Fundamentally, you either own property in the large scale means of production or you don't - which makes you working class or ruling/capitalist/bourgeois class. The middle class are those that own small scale means of production. The complication in the schema are the 'professional' layers.

Most people in the UK are working class, despite that tango tan, the foreign holidays and the two cars.

Hmm not so sure. Even my Mum and Dad (nice middle class house, ex teachers) still only have the one car.

 

[Peet]

i grew up in bradford btw, and leeds is posh, end of

Compared with Bradford anywhere is posh.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Middle Class have to struggle as well. And can you think of a society existing without a Middle Class?
Why do so many people on Urban seem to view the term Middle Class a fantastic insult.

Is your misunderstanding of the meaning of "class struggle" deliberate or real?

 

[Peet]

KPMG, Waddingtons, o2, Walmart, Marks and Spencers, The Halifax, The hq of the DSS, the royal armouries, a branch of the bank of England, Leeds United.. off the top of my head are all there because of students. REALLY????

You think if weren't graduate central they'd be there?

It's also a lot to do with the fact it's cheaper than London.

It is a shit tip though. Has its fair share of slums.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Priveleged to Work Long Hours and Commute on Dirty Trains and Crowded Roads.

Say what you like about Middle Class people but most Contribute to society. Apart from a few self hating drop outs.

What do you mean by "contribute to society", what's your criteria?

 

[TAE]

Taking myself as an example ... I used to sit at a desk in a factory and put metal parts together and got a fairly low income. Now I've got a pretty good income but I'm still sitting at a desk making stuff (software) which others own and sell.

So ... how would you classify someone like me ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

So ... how would you classify someone like me ?

A goat-fucking cock-weasel?

(sorry, couldn't resist )

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Middle class isn't too tricky to define. Fundamentally, you either own property in the large scale means of production or you don't - which makes you working class or ruling/capitalist/bourgeois class. The middle class are those that own small scale means of production. The complication in the schema are the 'professional' layers.<snip>

Yep, I always thought it worked something like that too, with petit-bourgoise being a (slightly conflicted) part of the proletariat and having class interests that (mostly) align with those of the rest of the proletariat rather than those of the capitalists.

Of course there is a line of thought that says that in any given time and place, certain class sectors (e.g. industrial workers or whatever) act as a kind of class vanguard, bring about some form of crisis of capitalism and by doing so, potentially bring the other sectors of the proletariat into alignment with their struggles against capital, and perhaps also polarise some other sectors of the proletariat into throwing in their lot with the capitalist class.

That's not necessarily a bad idea in itself, but it does rather raise some questions. For example, is that vanguard class segment always and forever the industrial workers, or does one have to do some sort of analysis to see which class segments potentially take this vanguard role at any given time and place?

Similarly, are the class segments who are likely to identify their interests with those of the capitalist class in a crunch always the same ones? I think it's perhaps something like that last assumption which is behind the comments that were being made on the 'Greens and the Left' thread earlier regarding the Greens being 'middle class' and therefore instrinsically toxic somehow.

 

[_angel_]

You think if weren't graduate central they'd be there?

It's also a lot to do with the fact it's cheaper than London.

It is a shit tip though. Has its fair share of slums.

Most cities have universities. This may come as a surprise to you but indiginous Leeds people have been known to get the odd qualification.

Leeds has been a business centre for a long time. First textiles, printing (still got) now also financial centre.


Slums. Where do you mean? Leeds demolished an awful lot of the old terrace style housing that may be defined as 'slum' and built a helluvalot of council estates. If you're defining 'slum' as council estate I for one am insulted.

 

[TAE]

A goat-fucking cock-weasel?

(sorry, couldn't resist )

No, I actually happen to like ... ah never mind.

 

[mk12]

The middle class are those that own small scale means of production

I think "ownership" in the juridicial sense is not good enough to define someone's class. Juridicially, everyone in the Soviet Union owned the means of production. But there were obviously classes in the SU.

 

[becky p]

What do you mean by "contribute to society", what's your criteria?

Somebody who contributes something useful to others. Often but not exclusivelly through paid work.

 

[_angel_]

Somebody who contributes something useful to others. Often but not exclusivelly through paid work.

Certainly not exclusively!

Yes people who earn more money pay more tax. But people on lower wages contribute more of their earnings into the tax and national insurance contributions as a percentage of their overall takehome pay than the well paid do.

Also the very well paid/ super rich have accountants to fiddle their books for them. I have been at college with rich kids who got their Daddies accountants to fiddle the books so they got full grants whereas other people (including me) did not. These are the same people that want benefit fraudsters strung up.

Doctors and teachers are needed in society - sure. So are the lower paid people who work with them and support them - cleaners, classroom assistants, cooks, nursery nurses, hospital and doctors receptionists etc.

 

[mk12]

Yes people who earn more money pay more tax.

Relatively?

 

[TAE]

Somebody who contributes something useful to others. Often but not exclusivelly through paid work.

I could include quite a few hard working managers there.

 

[smokedout]

Somebody who contributes something useful to others. Often but not exclusivelly through paid work.

and how many people in work of whatever class contribute something useful to others

do you think all those marketing execs, arms dealers and junk food providers are actually contributing to society?

 

[_angel_]

Relatively?

And then I said..

But people on lower wages contribute more of their earnings into the tax and national insurance contributions as a percentage of their overall takehome pay than the well paid do.

Try reading.

 

[simon foster]

... from a 'class struggle' point of view.

People who went to university and were given money from their parents to do so.

People who read The Guardian, The Independent, Daily Telegraph etc

People who get jobs in the family firm and become directors.

People who exert decision-making power over others' financial situations.

Some other stuff.

 

[simon foster]

People whose dominant parent (usually mother) went to university, or came from a wealthy family.

 

[nino_savatte]

its not perfect, but id say the middle class went to university, the working class didnt

as a 30 something urbanite that to me has always seemed the most obvious class division between myself and my peers

What about those of us who are from working class backgrounds, who then went to university?

 

[simon foster]

What about those of us who are from working class backgrounds, who then went to university?

Depends on the background, you'd need more specific detail.

 

[nino_savatte]

Depends on the background, you'd need more specific detail.

I thought that by saying "working class", I had indicated my background.

My mum was a seamstress in a factory and my dad was an enlisted man in the military....that's pretty damned working class.

 

[simon foster]

I thought that by saying "working class", I had indicated my background.

My mum was a seamstress in a factory and my dad was an enlisted man in the military....that's pretty damned working class.

How long was she a seamstress for?

How long was your dad in the military for, and in what country?

 

[nino_savatte]

How long was she a seamstress for?

How long was your dad in the military for, and in what country?

Why do you need to know?

 

[_angel_]

People who went to university and were given money from their parents to do so.
.

Nice get out clause.

 

[simon foster]

Why do you need to know?

You asked for clarification on your social status.

 

[simon foster]

Nice get out clause.

One of the end-products of a state education system is that students who apply themselves at school can actually go to university.

However they are at a financial disadvantage from those whose parents bankroll them and lavish them with cars, allowances, computers and even houses bought for them.

After graduation they then face further discrimination by the sorts who 'know people in the management', or who went to the 'right' school, or have the 'right' accent.

 

[_angel_]

One of the end-products of a state education system is that students who apply themselves at school can actually go to university.

However they are at a financial disadvantage from those whose parents bankroll them and lavish them with cars, allowances, computers and even houses bought for them.

After graduation they then face further discrimination by the sorts who 'know people in the management', or who went to the 'right' school, or have the 'right' accent.

I sort of doubt I'd have gone to college at all if I was eighteen now.

 

[simon foster]

I sort of doubt I'd have gone to college at all if I was eighteen now.

Me neither.

 

[nino_savatte]

You asked for clarification on your social status.

My mum was a seamstress until she met my dad, then, many years later, she worked as a dinner lady. My dad was in the USAF and he never went to college. I was the first one in my family to go to uni.

Oh, I think I should mention that I got a grant when I went to uni, my parents didn't give me an allowance.