What does 'middle class' mean?
- Thread starter TAE
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Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
The original question also asked what it means 'from a class struggle point of view' which I'd guess implies that the question should be answered in a political way, rather than just trying to find out what people mean when they use the term casually in conversation.
For example, on the thread about the Green Party and the left that's running right now, there were a bunch of people apparently dismissing the Green Party 'because they're middle class' which rather pre-supposes some political reasoning identifying what the middle class is and articulating the mechanism by which its supposed predominance in a political organisation or party makes that organisation worthless or irredeemably tainted or otherwise politically toxic.
So maybe what we really need to know is what the relationship between the 'middle class' and the capitalist class is meant to be and how it differs from that of the proletariat as a whole, or of various other specific class sectors to the capitalist class?
For example, on the thread about the Green Party and the left that's running right now, there were a bunch of people apparently dismissing the Green Party 'because they're middle class' which rather pre-supposes some political reasoning identifying what the middle class is and articulating the mechanism by which its supposed predominance in a political organisation or party makes that organisation worthless or irredeemably tainted or otherwise politically toxic.
So maybe what we really need to know is what the relationship between the 'middle class' and the capitalist class is meant to be and how it differs from that of the proletariat as a whole, or of various other specific class sectors to the capitalist class?
i think class has become transient in a way it never has before, yeah bill gates may have been born working class, but he isnt anymore
and neither are you wookey, sorry mate but your a journo, thats not working class
people no longer stay in their class defined roles and the marxist analysis doesnt hold water anymore
but the reason i brought up university is based purely on my personal experience that those who did university tend to have more middle class values and expectations then those who didnt, from a social point of view rather than a marxist one
and although many of them may be struggling now, they will end up the property owners and bosses of the future, whereas those that didnt are likely to end up working in the same job at a similiar level for the rest of their lives
and neither are you wookey, sorry mate but your a journo, thats not working class
people no longer stay in their class defined roles and the marxist analysis doesnt hold water anymore
but the reason i brought up university is based purely on my personal experience that those who did university tend to have more middle class values and expectations then those who didnt, from a social point of view rather than a marxist one
and although many of them may be struggling now, they will end up the property owners and bosses of the future, whereas those that didnt are likely to end up working in the same job at a similiar level for the rest of their lives
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
Mark Steel (not someone I have a huge amount in common with politically) pointed out that if you are a low-paid security guard in unsecure housing then it doesn't matter a jot if you watch Newsnight and cook with lemon grass, your position in economic terms in society is clearly a working class one. Equally, if you are the CEO of the firm that employs the security guard, it is immaterial if you never went to uni, read the Sun and have a thick regional accent. You are an employer and have the power to hire and fire virtually at will therefore are middle class in your relation to society.
I like to think about class in terms of the number of safety nets between you and destitution. Obviously it's principally about money, but also about education, profession or trade, employment status, housing status, family and friends' wealth, etc.
George Orwell was very astute when noting that socialism must appeal to the lower middle-class (clerks, secretaries, etc) who have most things in common with those traditionally recognised as working class. That's my background, by the way: university educated but not well off, not a home-owner, in administration for a living. Lower middle-class but I recognise my interests as lying far more in line with the working class (defined narrowly) than with fellow uni-educated doctors, managers, lawyers, etc. My sister is training as a doctor, however...
I like to think about class in terms of the number of safety nets between you and destitution. Obviously it's principally about money, but also about education, profession or trade, employment status, housing status, family and friends' wealth, etc.
George Orwell was very astute when noting that socialism must appeal to the lower middle-class (clerks, secretaries, etc) who have most things in common with those traditionally recognised as working class. That's my background, by the way: university educated but not well off, not a home-owner, in administration for a living. Lower middle-class but I recognise my interests as lying far more in line with the working class (defined narrowly) than with fellow uni-educated doctors, managers, lawyers, etc. My sister is training as a doctor, however...
Thora
Differently Ethical
That may have been the case in the past, but with so many people going to university now I don't think it's so true - there just aren't even boss-level jobs for everyone with a degree to get one. Loads of secretarial jobs want degrees, nurses need degrees etc.smokedout said:
yes but experienced secretaries and even nurses who have moved higher up the ladder are still paid salaries which ensure a level of security and stability compared to a labourer or shop assistant
i would say a large amount of the country is middle class now and the traditional working class doesnt exist anymore, this is down tio firstly grammar schools and now the number of people going to university
but there is now a growing underclass, without any security and often forced into criminality to survive, and its not a handful of people, but millions, possibly even still the majority
the whole definition of class needs a rethink imo
i would say a large amount of the country is middle class now and the traditional working class doesnt exist anymore, this is down tio firstly grammar schools and now the number of people going to university
but there is now a growing underclass, without any security and often forced into criminality to survive, and its not a handful of people, but millions, possibly even still the majority
the whole definition of class needs a rethink imo
I think I agree with In Bloom 
eek that the middle class is (mostly) part of the working class.
Taking myself as an example ... I used to sit at a desk in a factory and put metal parts together and got a fairly low income. Now I've got a pretty good income but I'm still sitting at a desk making stuff (software) which others own and sell.
eek that the middle class is (mostly) part of the working class. Taking myself as an example ... I used to sit at a desk in a factory and put metal parts together and got a fairly low income. Now I've got a pretty good income but I'm still sitting at a desk making stuff (software) which others own and sell.
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
I didn't say they were the class enemy. As an indispensable part of our nationalised health service they deserve as much money as they earn and I have no problem with that.Tom A said:
If you're looking for a class enemy then I would suggest people at a managerial level who have the power of life or death over their employees might be somewhere to start. Obviously some doctors fall into that category, but most don't.
northernhord
Active Member
In Bloom said:
Surely you dont believe that
_angel_
.
Peet said:
Who do you think is spending money in Harvey Nicholls. The studes are annoying but even they're not that rich.
Leeds is selling it's image as being a yuppie singleton paradise but the rest of us are still here.
I wouldn't dismiss it as a dismal provincial city despite what I dislike about it.
Oh and the chav comment, sorry but
northernhord
Active Member
Peet said:
When the chips are down - With the exception of share options and ISAs to fall back on possibly even property
Spion
I hear ya
Middle class isn't too tricky to define. Fundamentally, you either own property in the large scale means of production or you don't - which makes you working class or ruling/capitalist/bourgeois class. The middle class are those that own small scale means of production. The complication in the schema are the 'professional' layers.
Most people in the UK are working class, despite that tango tan, the foreign holidays and the two cars.
Most people in the UK are working class, despite that tango tan, the foreign holidays and the two cars.
northernhord
Active Member
In Bloom said:
So are you saying that the Middle Class dont exist then or that there is some blurring along class lines at the top and bottom of their spectrums where the classes meet
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Petit bourgeoisie or summat ?TAE said:
A bit of bothnorthernhoard said:So are you saying that the Middle Class dont exist then or that there is some blurring along class lines at the top and bottom of their spectrums where the classes meet
The middle class exist in the sense that there are some people who, by their position and their interests are essentially workers or bosses, but are particularly privileged or are technically wage labourers, respectively. IYSWIM. So there isn't one homogeneous "middle class".
northernhord
Active Member
In Bloom said:A bit of both
The middle class exist in the sense that there are some people who, by their position and their interests are essentially workers or bosses, but are particularly privileged or are technically wage labourers, respectively. IYSWIM.
Yeah gotcha
_angel_
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smokedout said:
Not underclass, there's a large working class element to Leeds.
It's not all posh although comparitively speaking to Bradford it may seem so. Leeds council have spun you a line and you've fallen for it hook line and sinker.
We are not all Harvey Nicks shopping brain dead drones. Have a look in Leeds market next time you're there. Posh??
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