What Does Asylum Cost?

[tbaldwin]

Well, I think that if you asked most people, anywhere in the world, whether they would prefer:

a) to be able to go and live and work wherever they wanted.

or

b) to be told, sorry, because you were born here, you belong to us, and as an important state resource you cannot be allowed to leave. We own you, in the same way that a farmer owns his cows and pigs.

I think I know which most people would go for, don't you?

Do you think British people should not be allowed to emigrate or temporarily work somewhere else (surely we are just as much "resources" belonging to Tony Blair?), or does your desire to have people ordered to stay in their country of birth only apply to poor countries?

Giles..

RMP3/Giles.

I think it depends on how a question is put to be honest.

But if you asked people if they thought it was a good idea to take the skilled workers from poorer countries,then i think people would be against it.
Giles your taking a classic view of putting the Individual above the Collective need of Society.
Which is fair enough if your a liberal or a tory. But Socialists have to look at the greatest good.
And it is definetely not in the interest of the vast majority have free movement of labour.
And trying to protray people like me as closet racists etc is shite. The last refuge of intellectual cowardice.
The Left has got it wrong on this issue.Badly wrong.

 

[fela fan]

There are many other examples of how religions/culture/standards were moulded and formed by class interests if you're interested in reading about them.

Respect ResistanceMP3

PS. There is already in a thread on this topic, "what is morality" and "how is culture formed" in the "new workers party" thread.

PPS. I am using the word function in the way economists use the word. For example supply is a function of demand, in other words supply it as a result of demand. I am not talking down to you, I just do not know what you know, and so just trying to explain what I'm saying.

Look you're probably right mate, and i'm pulling the thread off topic. I'll quit now!

 

[kyser_soze]

RMP3/Giles.

I think it depends on how a question is put to be honest.

But if you asked people if they thought it was a good idea to take the skilled workers from poorer countries,then i think people would be against it.
Giles your taking a classic view of putting the Individual above the Collective need of Society.
Which is fair enough if your a liberal or a tory. But Socialists have to look at the greatest good.
And it is definetely not in the interest of the vast majority have free movement of labour.
And trying to protray people like me as closet racists etc is shite. The last refuge of intellectual cowardice.
The Left has got it wrong on this issue.Badly wrong.

You're not a closet racist at all - closet authoritarian yes, but not a closet racist.

 

[fela fan]

.

The real crimes in my opinion are that so many people continue to die from hunger and preventable diseases every day. Issues like Iraq are totally insignificant in comparison.
Its also a disgrace that third world countries are losing the people they need most to the lure of the dollar and the euro.

I can't disagree with your first comment.

However the brain drain is not one-way. I'm not certain about third world countries, but ex-third world countries, ie developing countries', get plenty of western resources (western people and western money) in their countries helping them to develop and improve the lot of their nations.

I'm a living example of helping to develop a developing nation. There are millions of me, britons being perhaps the largest single donor nation.

 

[Giles]

RMP3/Giles.

I think it depends on how a question is put to be honest.

But if you asked people if they thought it was a good idea to take the skilled workers from poorer countries,then i think people would be against it.
Giles your taking a classic view of putting the Individual above the Collective need of Society.
Which is fair enough if your a liberal or a tory. But Socialists have to look at the greatest good.
And it is definetely not in the interest of the vast majority have free movement of labour.
And trying to protray people like me as closet racists etc is shite. The last refuge of intellectual cowardice.
The Left has got it wrong on this issue.Badly wrong.

You are still making the mistake of seeing this in terms of "taking" workers from countries - as if they are mere chattels of the country in which they were born, with no will of their own.

No-one comes with nets and chains and "takes" people anywhere, like slaves.

They get on planes and boats and go places by themselves, because they want to. They are just as much human beings as you or I.

Just for clarification, if you wanted to take your skills and work abroad, would you be happy if you were told that you couldn't, because you are a resource of the UK and you are compelled to work for the collective good of the UK economy, even against your will?

And I am a liberal - I believe that people should be free to do as they please, so long as they are harming no-one.

And finally, I have *not* said anything about race in this whole thread, have I?

Giles..

 

[TremulousTetra]

RMP3/Giles.

I think it depends on how a question is put to be honest.

But if you asked people if they thought it was a good idea to take the skilled workers from poorer countries,then i think people would be against it.
Giles your taking a classic view of putting the Individual above the Collective need of Society.
Which is fair enough if your a liberal or a tory. But Socialists have to look at the greatest good.
And it is definetely not in the interest of the vast majority have free movement of labour.
And trying to protray people like me as closet racists etc is shite. The last refuge of intellectual cowardice.
The Left has got it wrong on this issue.Badly wrong.

when have I ever called you a racist? Never! Haven't I always said you are completely right that the present policy of immigration and emigration is completely beneficial to first world countries, at the detriment of Third World countries? Yes I have. I do not know a single revolutionary anarchist, socialist, etc etc who would not accept this if you couched the question in the correct fashion. However, accepting all that does not mean you have to accept your "solution" of taking punitive measures against workers. I do not believe your suggestion of taking punitive measures against workers is a solution. In fact I believe it would make the situation much worse, because it would feed into the capital is promoted logic that immigrants are the problem, rather than the true reality that capitalism is the problem. The fact that some revolutionaries have wrongly accused you of being racist does not in my eyes logically legitimate you refusing to answer Giles question. For the 100th time, it is not your argument I disagree with, it is your solution. If you are not prepared to answer Giles question, then we can not honestly take this debate forward, and you are then guilty of all the things you charge Socialists with.

Respects Resistance MP3

 

[fela fan]

mods!!!

Something's going seriously wrong with this thread. People are hitting the reply button to somebody's post, and it's saying that the poster is replying to the poster himself!!

i've quoted myself

giles has quoted giles

tbaldwin has quoted tbaldwin

and so it goes.

What on earth is going on here?

 

[tbaldwin]

RPM3 No you havent called me a closet Racist. But plenty of people on U75 have jumped to very lazy conclusions about me and other posters who stray from Orthodox Left thinking.
But as for punitive measures against workers.....I think that is not really a great arguement. You could say that income tax is a punitive measure against workers but does that mean we should do away with it?
Not if it is in the interests of society as a whole no.
And it is the same with migration. Some people will undoubtedly lose out but the majority would gain.
The free movement of people runs counter to any credible idea of Internationalism.

 

[Giles]

RPM3 No you havent called me a closet Racist. But plenty of people on U75 have jumped to very lazy conclusions about me and other posters who stray from Orthodox Left thinking.
But as for punitive measures against workers.....I think that is not really a great arguement. You could say that income tax is a punitive measure against workers but does that mean we should do away with it?
Not if it is in the interests of society as a whole no.
And it is the same with migration. Some people will undoubtedly lose out but the majority would gain.
The free movement of people runs counter to any credible idea of Internationalism.

So, you do believe that people are essentially "resources" that are there to be "used" by the government of the country where they happened to be born, and if necessary forcibly prevented from leaving?

If so, that is a crock of shit, I'm afraid. I am a citizen of the world, and no-one has the right to order me about.

Giles..

 

[tbaldwin]

So, you do believe that people are essentially "resources" that are there to be "used" by the government of the country where they happened to be born, and if necessary forcibly prevented from leaving?

If so, that is a crock of shit, I'm afraid. I am a citizen of the world, and no-one has the right to order me about.

Giles..

More like Grains of Sand to be honest.....
Oh dear but yes i do believe that people are a resource.
I am not talking about banning people from leaving a country but not allowing them to live and work in a country unless they fit certain criteria eg they are moving for marriage or in genuine fear of torture and persecution.

How would you stop poor countries losing the people they need most?

Have you thought about the consequences of supporting free market migration policies on the people left behind in developing nations?

 

[kyser_soze]

What about those who come to the US and Europe and later return home with additional skills and abilities that they simply would not be able to access at home? This is common amoung Indians and Chinese in the US, and I think it will become common in Europe.

Hell, if I were a dr or engineer where would I want to be - somewhere I can learn little or somewhere I can learn a lot?

 

[Giles]

How would you stop poor countries losing the people they need most?

I wouldn't. There is nothing that can be done without completely disregarding people's rights.

Have you thought about the consequences of supporting free market migration policies on the people left behind in developing nations?

Yes, but this still does not justify actively preventing people from living and working where they want. And as others on here have pointed out, people move to and from countries for all sorts of reasons. It's not all one-way traffic. Some will go to another country, learn more skills, earn some money, and then return home.

In the end, we live in one world. The days when individual countries could build a big wall around themselves, and refuse to let their people out, and try to ignore the global economy, have gone. And they aren't coming back. Supply and demand will find the value of different skills.

Giles..

 

[fela fan]

Hell, if I were a dr or engineer where would I want to be - somewhere I can learn little or somewhere I can learn a lot?

Yeah well don't project that very western attitude onto everyone. Not everyone judges life by how much money they can get. Most people in fact prefer to live where they're born. And if the lifestyle - food climate friends ways of doing things - is agreeable why take yourself off to a money paradise?

Typical western thinking - life is money, money is life.

 

[fela fan]

I am not talking about banning people from leaving a country but not allowing them to live and work in a country unless they fit certain criteria eg they are moving for marriage or in genuine fear of torture and persecution.

How would you stop poor countries losing the people they need most?

Have you thought about the consequences of supporting free market migration policies on the people left behind in developing nations?

Arrgh! That is a dreadful sentiment, to restrict people's movements. That is what many governments do, and it is absolutely not anyone's right to stop me from working wherever i wish to do so. As giles says it's one world.

You seem think that qualified people from poor countries are rushing to get to european ones. I thought asylum seekers generally came from places of major political upheaval, not political upheaval.

In my example, i bet there are more british people living in thailand than thais in britain. Furthermore many wealtheir thais go abroad to universities, then return home with all their new skills and knowledge to help develop their own nation.

And then there's the thais who go abroad to work and send most of their earnings back home to their families who can then live comfortably instead of looking for their next meal.

You seem to be talking about some kind of political/economical theory. In practice it's quite different.

I hope you never get the chance to harm other people's lives by restricting their movements and choices, all in the name of you following your own 'principles' about what is 'good' for the masses. Your thinking on this is terrible mate.

 

[TremulousTetra]

to Mr Baldwin

Arrgh! That is a dreadful sentiment, to restrict people's movements. That is what many governments do, and it is absolutely not anyone's right to stop me from working wherever i wish to do so. As giles says it's one world.

You seem think that qualified people from poor countries are rushing to get to european ones. I thought asylum seekers generally came from places of major political upheaval, not political upheaval.

In my example, i bet there are more british people living in thailand than thais in britain. Furthermore many wealtheir thais go abroad to universities, then return home with all their new skills and knowledge to help develop their own nation.

And then there's the thais who go abroad to work and send most of their earnings back home to their families who can then live comfortably instead of looking for their next meal.

You seem to be talking about some kind of political/economical theory. In practice it's quite different.

I hope you never get the chance to harm other people's lives by restricting their movements and choices, all in the name of you following your own 'principles' about what is 'good' for the masses. Your thinking on this is terrible mate.

don't you find this post an ironic Mr Baldwin? You are being accused of those crimes you accuse Socialists of? "Baldwinism "The will of the majority" or is it?"

 

[tbaldwin]

I wouldn't. There is nothing that can be done without completely disregarding people's rights.




Yes, but this still does not justify actively preventing people from living and working where they want. And as others on here have pointed out, people move to and from countries for all sorts of reasons. It's not all one-way traffic. Some will go to another country, learn more skills, earn some money, and then return home.

In the end, we live in one world. The days when individual countries could build a big wall around themselves, and refuse to let their people out, and try to ignore the global economy, have gone. And they aren't coming back. Supply and demand will find the value of different skills.

Giles..

One world is a nice phrase BUT the fact is that the world is a very unequal and divided place.
If we encourage people to move to follow capital...Which is what people seem to want on the Liberal left we are leaving most of the world to rot.
Freedom of Movement is survival of the fittest. It runs contrary to any idea of a more equal world or social justice.
Giles etc believe in the rights of the individuals but that leads to a far greater number of individuals losing out.

 

[Giles]

One world is a nice phrase BUT the fact is that the world is a very unequal and divided place.
If we encourage people to move to follow capital...Which is what people seem to want on the Liberal left we are leaving most of the world to rot.
Freedom of Movement is survival of the fittest. It runs contrary to any idea of a more equal world or social justice.
Giles etc believe in the rights of the individuals but that leads to a far greater number of individuals losing out.

You seem to be suggesting that if a small percentage of people leave a given country, then the rest of the population are somehow too stupid to achieve anything at all on their own, and I don't think that this is the case.

Giles..

 

[tbaldwin]

You seem to be suggesting that if a small percentage of people leave a given country, then the rest of the population are somehow too stupid to achieve anything at all on their own, and I don't think that this is the case.

Giles..

Giles thats not what im suggesting at all.But if nearly all skilled workers leave a developing country,how is it going to develop?
If we take Teachers,Engineers,Doctors and Nurses from some of the poorest nations should we be congratulating ourselves on giving those people the opportunity to have a better standard of living or should we be more worried about the greater number left behind.?
For Socialists the answer is clear but Liberals struggle with this question.

 

[kyser_soze]

And socialists would restrict where people can go.

Is it any wonder that, with a view like that socialism is a dying idea?

 

[TremulousTetra]

And socialists would restrict where people can go.

Is it any wonder that, with a view like that socialism is a dying idea?

Kyser, you've got it wrong again, it is the antisocialist Mr Baldwin who wants to restrict where people can go. The Socialists are arguing for open borders etc.

Rmp3

 

[tbaldwin]

And socialists would restrict where people can go.

Is it any wonder that, with a view like that socialism is a dying idea?

Socialism has always been about planning and regulation in the interests of the majority.

People are already restricted where people can go by Capital or Lack of it.
To some people that is fine.Usually because they are not that restricted by a lack of Capital.

 

[tbaldwin]

Kyser, you've got it wrong again, it is the antisocialist Mr Baldwin who wants to restrict where people can go. The Socialists are arguing for open borders etc.

Rmp3

So Rmp3 are you arguing for or against free market policies on migration?
I'm not trying to be funny,im genuinelly confused by what your saying.

 

[Fruitloop]

Surely the socialists are arguing for open borders under socialism. Capitalism + open borders = race to the bottom in terms of pay, conditions etc etc.

 

[fela fan]

One world is a nice phrase BUT the fact is that the world is a very unequal and divided place.
If we encourage people to move to follow capital...Which is what people seem to want on the Liberal left we are leaving most of the world to rot.

I went in the opposite direction of capital and wealth. I fled it.

Plentiful numbers like me. We're all over the world in many third world countries and developing world countries.

Maybe we even outnumber the amounts going to the likes of britain...

Where i am is not rotting at all. In fact stories reaching my ears tell me britain is rotting...

 

[kyser_soze]

*Reads RMP3 and Balders posts*

*grins*

These two posts demostrate WHY socialism/communism has failed to set the world alight - Balders because there is this awul authoritarian 'We do what's best for 'the majority' (and who exactly decides that), and RMP3 who is arguing that he too is a socialist but putting the opposite view.

I'll make my point - I don't think socialism, Marxism and it's various intellectual offshoots OR Anarchism will lead to a better world. It will be somethinig very different that at the moment no-one has had the Eureka! moment to get. Whether it's a synthesis between modernism and post-modernism or something else, we ain't gonna get there with what there is a the moment.

 

[Fruitloop]

Don't go tarring anarchism with this arse, there's no authoritarian tendency within anarchism as far as I'm aware. We might have to shoot some jugglers on the way to utopia tho

 

[kyser_soze]

Don't go tarring anarchism with this arse, there's no authoritarian tendency within anarchism as far as I'm aware. We might have to shoot some jugglers on the way to utopia tho

Sorry - should have made it clearer in my post. I didn't mean to lump it in with these kids (if Urban's changed me at all it's made me a closet anarchist...but on my own terms)...my main points still stand tho...esp about yer trad left...

I mean look - two people both claiming to be socialist (OK, socialist/Marxist...the difference is more important to them I reckon) giving me utterly opposing views on a subject as easy as immigration...

 

[TremulousTetra]

Don't go tarring anarchism with this arse, there's no authoritarian tendency within anarchism as far as I'm aware. We might have to shoot some jugglers on the way to utopia tho

I've just been banned by butchers at the starrey place.

 

[kyser_soze]

I've just been banned by butchers at the starrey place.

You being too liberal?

 

[TremulousTetra]

You being too liberal?

No, him being to authoritrian. You know what a arrogant fuck he is.