What do you think you would do if you had no morality?

[bluestreak]

Is I-am-your-idea a joke?

No, worse, she's a fan of max_freakout's work.

 

[revol68]

No, worse, she's a fan of max_freakout's work.

I must be well out of the loop, what's his take on things then?

Also amorality like nihilism is an impossibility.

 

[bluestreak]

Imagine a 15 year old stoner with a beginner's guide to philosophy and an affectation of sophistry. nothing can be known, there is no free will, the dmt fairies are real and a manifestation of what some call god etc etc.

I kind of suspect freakout might be trolling somewhat, but this one..? poser i reckon.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

wiki says -

Amorality is the quality of existence that moral right and wrong (or good and evil) are incompatible. 'Amorality' or 'amoralism' may also refer to believing that the concepts of moral right and wrong do not have meaning, or lacking a belief in the absolute existence of any moral laws.

"Amorality" is different from "immorality" although they are often confused. An amoral person denies the existence of morality, as opposed to an immoral person who violates a certain moral code, but may still believe in the underlying truth of that moral code. Amoral persons either do not possess ethical notions at all as a result of upbringing (see Antisocial personality disorder) or else do not subscribe to any moral code. This latter may in turn mean strong individualistic leanings that do not get codified into a universally applicable system.

Someone already mentioned the antisocial personality disorder thing. I was brought up to have a very definate sense of right and wrong, but its only recently that i've transcended this. I think wiki makes an important point that amorality still allows for strong individualistic learnings, as long as they dont get codified into a universally applicable system.

Someone may maintain that he will do as he likes and let others do the same, if they so desire, without turning this into a general principle as, for example, Kant's categorical imperative would require. Because whoever says so only expresses his personal preference or informs about the way he is going to act, the position is consistent. An amoralist might also make a stronger point that moral systems are arbitrary and unfounded on the whole, which is an epistemic or anthropological claim and not an ethical one.

 

[butchersapron]

...and?

 

[butchersapron]

'wiki' this:

Nothing means everything, everything's permitted
Nothing is forbiden, so anything goes

Let's take turns molesting children
I'm so bored with my life
Yes, we'll take turns molesting children
Then I'll go home to my wife

I was born to be an attorney
I was born to peddle cars
I'll make hay while the sun shines
Then I'll end behind bars

Nothing means everything, everything's permitted
Nothing is forbiden, so anything goes

Let's go home and bury the children
In the cellar with my wife
They were all insured for millions
Now we'll do just what we like

I was born to live on credit
You know my Visa's solid gold
Master card is my religion
I've got a mortage on my soul

Nothing means everything, everything's permitted
Nothing is forbiden, so anything goes

Let's go down to Guam and fuck a baby
I saw a tour on the internet
They say that hell awaits all sinners
But haven't got us yet

Something is wrong in the heartland
There's an evil that creeps across this land
But they say God accepts all sinners
So why should we give a damn

 

[bodach]

Unsubscribes from thread.

 

[butchersapron]

An amoral person denies the existence of morality

Morality exists.

 

[butchersapron]

Unsubscribes from thread.

*Shits on perspex window*

 

[bluestreak]

*Shits on perspex window*

Kinky.



I'm not sure that amorality is something that can be examined. See, we look at people with anti-social personality disorder who appear to lack empathy and so act in ways that are pure self-interest, and we can say that they're sick, but we're not entirely sure how it works, it's merely a lable for something that may be a brain illness, an upbringing issue, or something else. Or we can look at someone like max's_idea, who can claim amorality but can't provide anythink to suggest this is just an attempt to look nihilistic on the internets. Even amorality is a position, no matter how much you pretend that you have no free will and everything you do is preordained or controlled by mushroom jesus. Too cowardly to accept personal responsibility I guess.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

Morality exists.

yes, morality exists as a set of beliefs. It exists as a concept. I feel that ultimately it has no universally application. There are no true morals, everything is open for questioning. Peoples beliefs dissolve over time and differ from country to country. Nobody has knowledge of right and wrong, all they have is their own version of what might be.

All held moral codes are temporary, and if you speed things up a bit, they are in constant flux according to time and place.

 

[ViolentPanda]

but hitler definately had morals. he believed very strongly that he was doing the right thing.

Your statement presupposes that the two are synonymous.

They're not.

 

[ViolentPanda]

his systematic extermination of whole sections of society was inspired by his sense of morality.

he was utterly confident that he was doing the right thing. those people are always more dangerous imo.

The genocidal policies of the Nazi regime had two fundamental motivations: One based in race theory, the other in economics. Neither were based in any way on Hitler's personal morality, but on his personal prejudiced beliefs, and those of his inner circle.

 

[butchersapron]

yes, morality exists as a set of beliefs. It exists as a concept. I feel that ultimately it has no universally application. There are no true morals, everything is open for questioning. Peoples beliefs dissolve over time and differ from country to country. Nobody has knowledge of right and wrong, all they have is their own version of what might be.

All held moral codes are temporary, and if you speed things up a bit, they are in constant flux according to time and place.

That fact that specific morals aren't universal is not an argument that morality doesn't exist. It a clear argument that it does. contra you excellent wiki link as back-up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can't be bothered with the general inane thrust of the thread, but Hitler wasn't a vegetarian.

Uh-huh.
He often ate only vegetables when his amphetamine use resulted (as it always does) in horrendous stomach cramps, soluble fibre being much easier to digest than a Wiener schnitzel.

 

[DotCommunist]

If I had no morals I would probably act much the same as I do now, on the basis that it makes for a quiet life. Committing crimes and other outrages is very demanding on one's time and energy.

Morals always makes me think of Church and the morality preached by it. Ethics seems so much of a less loaded term.

But is there a difference between unethical and amoral?

I don't know. I just try to be nice to people and save my bilious rage for appropriate targets.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

The genocidal policies of the Nazi regime had two fundamental motivations: One based in race theory, the other in economics. Neither were based in any way on Hitler's personal morality, but on his personal prejudiced beliefs, and those of his inner circle.

One of the reasons why Hitler was so popular with conservative Christians in Germany was precisely because he promised to restore traditional morality. He opposed abortion, homosexuality, pornography, and just about everything else conservative Christians complained were ruining modern Germany.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why do people keep repeating this piece of crap?

Because it's easier to regurgitate nonsense than to conduct 5 minutes worth of historical research?

 

[butchersapron]

One of the reasons why Hitler was so popular with conservative Christians in Germany was precisely because he promised to restore traditional morality. He opposed abortion, homosexuality, pornography, and just about everything else conservative Christians complained were ruining modern Germany.

That would explain why the prorestants were the 2nd largest group of resisters to nazism. He made up a new church and forcibly co-ordidnated the clergy into it. Do you know anything about this?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Sounds like you're asking about anti-social personality disorder (lack of empathy). People with anti-social pd tend to treat others as objects to be used rather than human beings, probably as a result of severe emotional neglect as children.

I've met people like that they give me the fucking willies.

Agree about the emotional neglect but there might also be a genetic factor although not as strong in the majority of cases as the developmental one.

 

[butchersapron]

We're talking about amorality as a game here though. Sad to say.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I must be well out of the loop, what's his take on things then?

Also amorality like nihilism is an impossibility.

True, it's merely a convenient label to put on some social behaviours that don't conform to normative expectations.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

I dont know much about nazi germany, but I did a google search.

Hitler says-

'The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable.'

'Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea.'

'Woman's world is her husband, her family, her children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men.'

'We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years.'

 

[butchersapron]

Brilliant

 

[ViolentPanda]

yes, morality exists as a set of beliefs. It exists as a concept. I feel that ultimately it has no universally application. There are no true morals, everything is open for questioning. Peoples beliefs dissolve over time and differ from country to country. Nobody has knowledge of right and wrong, all they have is their own version of what might be.

All held moral codes are temporary, and if you speed things up a bit, they are in constant flux according to time and place.

Wow, the sheer insight!

Thanks for letting me know that morality is a contingent social practice that's variable over time and space!

 

[i-am-your-idea]

'a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.'

'The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.'

'its significance, however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality.

'do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values'

 

[ViolentPanda]

One of the reasons why Hitler was so popular with conservative Christians in Germany was precisely because he promised to restore traditional morality. He opposed abortion, homosexuality, pornography, and just about everything else conservative Christians complained were ruining modern Germany.

The fact that he promised morality has no bearing on whether he practiced morality, and as for what he opposed and/or supported, a bit of historical research will show you that from the mid 1920s on Hitler set store by only two constants, neither or which were based on moral practice. Anything else was window-dressing for the marks, like his "job creation" schemes.

 

[bluestreak]

Correct me if I'm wrong but does morality tend to refer to perhaps religious or social morality, whereas ethics tend to look at the study of right and wrong?

hmmm

morality
–noun, plural -ties for 4–6. 1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character.
3. virtue in sexual matters; chastity.
4. a doctrine or system of morals.
5. moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance.

ethics
–plural noun 1. (used with a singular or plural verb) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture.
2. the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.
3. moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.
4. (usually used with a singular verb) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.

ok, so really the two are pretty interchangable.

 

[butchersapron]

'a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.'

'The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.'

'its significance, however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality.

'do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values'

Again...and?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I dont know much about nazi germany, but I did a google search.

Hitler says-

'The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable.'

'Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea.'

'Woman's world is her husband, her family, her children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men.'

'We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years.'

Even after you read that, didn't you get the slightest impression that, just possibly, it wasn't any form of normative moral behaviour that fuelled nazism, but an appeal to socio-cultural prejudices?