What do you think of Israel's response to Hezbollah capturing their soldiers?

[moono]

Arafat;

Well I guess this is what happens when you're friends with America.

Yo Yosser.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well I guess this is what happens when you're friends with America.

Yasser! We thought you were dead!!

 

[scarecrow]

Even Jesus and Pilate knew that centuries ago.

According to 'the book'

 

[scarecrow]

Yo Yosser.

 

[White Lotus]

I'm going to unsubscribe from this thread now for the same reason I'm stopping watching news on Lebanon. I've got past the point of being angry and I'm now just saddened and profoundly depressed. If there was a single thing I could do about it, I would. But apart from token things like boycotting Israeli consumer goods (which I'd be minded to do anyway because of Palestine) I'm completely helpless.

This is not a good state of mind to be in and it impacts the areas of my life where I do make a difference (family, friends, job, charity) so I'm going to drop the subject as best I can for now.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Blair 'working on Mid East plan'



One wonders why they decided to "draw up a plan" now rather than last week? Or the week before that? Or when Israeli soldiers were running operations in South Lebanon (you know like the ones that were captured)?

becuase there was no ecuse to atack iran involved in isreal arresting palestinian doctors or raiding lebanon....

 

[moono]

Lotus;

I'm going to unsubscribe from this thread now for the same reason I'm stopping watching news on Lebanon. I've got past the point of being angry and I'm now just saddened and profoundly depressed. If there was a single thing I could do about it, I would. But apart from token things like boycotting Israeli consumer goods (which I'd be minded to do anyway because of Palestine) I'm completely helpless.

This is not a good state of mind to be in and it impacts the areas of my life where I do make a difference (family, friends, job, charity) so I'm going to drop the subject as best I can for now.

You can be active if you want.

http://www.map-uk.org/
[Medical Aid for Palestinians]
Courtesy ZAMB

http://www.palestinecampaign.org/
Palestine Solidarity Camapign
Courtesy 'The Guardian'

It's the same war.

http://www.electronicintifada.net/lebanon/
Electronic Lebanon
Courtesy Electronic Intifada.

 

[nino_savatte]

It is impossible for a democracy to wage aggressive war with a conscript army unless a vast majority of the population is fervantly behind the enterprize.

Edited: already dealt with this earlier.

 

[phildwyer]

Well, that wasn't at all what you were saying ; you suggested that all Israelis were fully behind the project. "They want to take the gloves to be taken off" or words to that effect, was what you said. I should like to see some figures that support your contention.

No Nino, I said that the Israeli *press* was screaming to take the gloves off. I take that as an indication of where the powers that be want public opinion to go. It may interest you to learn that the US press is also screaming for Israel to take the gloves off. In particular it is reporting alleged threats made by Hizbollah against the US. The intent is clearly to convince Americans that we are fighting the same war as Israel. The Israeli stranglehold over the US media and US foriegn policy would appear to be complete.

 

[nino_savatte]

No Nino, I said that the Israeli *press* was screaming to take the gloves off. I take that as an indication of where the powers that be want public opinion to go. It may interest you to learn that the US press is also screaming for Israel to take the gloves off. In particular it is reporting alleged threats made by Hizbollah against the US. The intent is clearly to convince Americans that we are fighting the same war as Israel. The Israeli stranglehold over the US media and US foriegn policy would appear to be complete.

I already dealt with this on the previous page, phil. Have a look at the post again...it's been edited.

Though you do contradict yourself

I think both the Israeli military and the Israeli public is prepared to take heavy casualties if necessary

Which implies consent.

 

[phildwyer]

If that is the case then where are the figures that say there is "overwhelming support" for a war without end? Furthermore, the role of the media in marshalling the public mind behind wars is without question and in the case of Israel, a highly militarised society, the role of the media is even more important in terms of the presentation of the conflict as 'just'. Therefore it is not in the press's interest to make claims that contradict the state's desire to pursue violence as a means to an end rather, they are four square behind the leadership and its 'vision'. The Israeli press is not to be trusted anymore than the mainstream media of any other nation, particularly the USA.

I agree. But it would be reckless to ignore the role that the press plays in forming public opinion. Its not that a rabidly pro-war press automatically makes the population rabidly pro-war, but the terms of debate shift. For example, the question as it is posed on this thread's title--did Israel over-react--is being endlessly debated in the US press. But of course the truth is that this is not a "reaction" to anything, but a long-planned attempt to destroy Lebanon. But you will find almost no-one saying this in the US mainstream press. Is it any different in the UK?

 

[phildwyer]

Which implies consent.

Yep. I think the Israeli public is largely behind this war. The American public too. I don't think the war could be waged otherwise.

 

[nino_savatte]

I agree. But it would be reckless to ignore the role that the press plays in forming public opinion. Its not that a rabidly pro-war press automatically makes the population rabidly pro-war, but the terms of debate shift. For example, the question as it is posed on this thread's title--did Israel over-react--is being endlessly debated in the US press. But of course the truth is that this is not a "reaction" to anything, but a long-planned attempt to destroy Lebanon. But you will find almost no-one saying this in the US mainstream press. Is it any different in the UK?

The media's role goes beyond that of shifting debate; it universalises and rationalises a state of "military preparedness" which is essential for the Israeli state to pursue its nationalistic projects (in which an aggressive posture becomes a defensive one). The press does the same job in the US and here, though the news media here, is more inclined to a form of impartiality. At least the BBC show things from a Lebanese perspective. I see nothing of the kind on ABC and NBC's nightly newscasts which are shown on cable in this country. They are more inclined to conflate the Lebanese en masse with Hezbollah and present Israel as the victim in all of this.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Here's Hezbollah's reaction to the bombing.

We are defending our sovereignty
by Ali Fayyad, a senior member of Hizbullah's executive committee

For nearly two weeks Israel has been waging a war of terror and aggression against Lebanon. Its stated justification is the capture by the Islamic Resistance (Hizbullah) of two Israeli soldiers with the aim of exchanging them for Lebanese prisoners. The war has already resulted in the killing of around 400 and wounding of more than 1,000 Lebanese. Most are civilians (a third children), crushed in their homes or ripped to pieces in their cars by Israeli bombs and missiles.

In reality, the Israeli escalation is less about the two soldiers and more about its determination to disarm the Lebanese resistance. According to the US, Israel and some other western states, this would implement UN security council resolution 1559, which led to the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon last year.

Most Lebanese, however, do not regard the resistance forces of Hizbullah as militias, as referred to in the UN resolution, let alone any kind of terrorist organisation. Our resistance accomplished a major national mission by forcing Israeli troops to withdraw from most Lebanese territory in 2000 after 22 years of occupation. Since then there has been intense national debate about how Lebanon can defend itself in future once the resistance has achieved the liberation of the remaining occupied Lebanese land (the Shaba'a farms area) and the release of Lebanese detainees.

The Lebanese people's support for the resistance was demonstrated by the fact that Hizbullah and its allies won more seats in the 2005 elections, following the Syrian withdrawal, than when Syrian troops were still in the country. That is why Israel is now targeting civilians.

In the context of the continued occupation, detention of prisoners and repeated Israeli attacks and incursions into Lebanese territory, the capture of the Israeli soldiers was entirely legitimate. The operation was fully in line with the Lebanese ministerial declaration, supported in parliament, that stressed the right of the resistance to liberate occupied Lebanese territory, free prisoners of war and defend Lebanon against Israeli aggression. International law also allows peoples and states to take action to protect their citizens and territory. The Israeli onslaught is aimed not only at liquidating the resistance and destroying the country's infrastructure but at intervening in Lebanese politics and imposing conditions on what can be agreed.

There is now a clear national consensus on the need to maintain the military power necessary to prevent Lebanon from being subjugated by Israel's war machine. Popular resistance is a way of redressing the huge imbalance of power, defending Lebanon's sovereignty and preventing Israel from intervening in Lebanese internal affairs, as has happened repeatedly since 1948. It is also - as has been the case in the prisoner-capture operation - dictated by an entirely local agenda, rather than reflecting any Syrian or Iranian policy.

The aggression against Lebanon, which has primarily targeted civilians and failed to achieve any tangible military objectives, is part of a continuing attempt to impose Israeli hegemony on the area and prevent the emergence of a regional system that might guarantee stability, self-determination, freedom and democracy.

Hizbullah has tried from the start of this crisis to limit the escalation by adopting a policy of limited response while avoiding civilian targets; its aims were restricted to freeing the prisoners of war held in both camps. However, Israel's systematic destruction of entire civilian areas in Beirut and elsewhere and perpetration of scores of horrific massacres prompted Hizbullah to shift to an all-out confrontation to affirm Lebanon's right to deter aggression and defend its territorial integrity and its citizens, just as any sovereign state would do.

Thus far, Hizbullah has had surprising military successes, while maintaining its position in the face of Israel's superior fire power, and preserved its capacity to wage a long-term war. But Hizbullah is still ready to accept a ceasefire and negotiate indirectly an exchange of prisoners to bring the current crisis to an end.

This is what Israel has so far rejected, with the support of the US. For this is also a war of American hegemony over the Middle East, and the US - supported by the British government - is fully complicit in the Israeli war crimes carried out in the past two weeks. It would appear that the peaceful option will not be given a chance until Hizbullah and the forces of resistance have demonstrated their ability to confront Israel's aggression and thwart its objectives, as happened in 1993 and 1996. That is why resistance is not only a pillar of our sovereignty but also a prerequisite of stability.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Lebonese Bloggers

http://lebanonheartblogs.blogspot.com/

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Lebonese Bloggers

http://lebanonheartblogs.blogspot.com/

Aye, good blog that.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

At the heart of the Lebanon crisis lie the lethal mistakes of George Bush

It was meant to be over by now. This time last week Israeli military planners were demanding another 72 hours to finish the job: that's all they needed, they promised, to clear southern Lebanon of Hizbullah. Yet the enemy has proved stubborn. Despite two weeks of bombardment, Hizbullah's formidable arsenal remains in place. Yesterday they fired yet more rockets - 60 of them - deep into Israel, reaching the city of Haifa and killing a teenage girl in the Arab village of Maghar.

This persistence is causing the first rumblings of Israeli disquiet. Why are the Katyushas "still coming, and killing?" asks one Israeli columnist. Are the Israel Defence Forces losing their edge, asks another, wondering if "instead of an army that is small but smart, we are catching glimpses of an army that is big, rich and dumb". The top brass deny they have been surprised by Hizbullah's strength. They expected nothing less, they say - not least because Iran has been supplying the movement with more than $100m worth of arms. Which would explain the serious hardware, including long-range missiles, at Hizbullah's disposal.

 

[nino_savatte]

Good article that. I do like Freedland's stuff.

 

[slaar]

Good article that. I do like Freedland's stuff.

All the more so when he also writes things like this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1857025474/202-9415007-6641442?v=glance&n=266239

He clearly is disgusted by how utterly repugnant the current US leadership is.

 

[nino_savatte]

All the more so when he also writes things like this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1857025474/202-9415007-6641442?v=glance&n=266239

He clearly is disgusted by how utterly repugnant the current US leadership is.

Have you ever listened to his The Long View on BBC Radio 4? It's worth a listen.

 

[slaar]

Have you ever listened to his The Long View on BBC Radio 4? It's worth a listen.

I haven't actually, thanks for the tip. Once I can actually get access to the radio over broadband (Africa isn't ideal for BBC reception) I'll look it up.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Reading the following, amongst other things, I still can't see how people can view Israels actions as 'proportionate'...

“They wrote the names of the dead children on their plastic shrouds. “Mehdi Hashem, aged seven - Qana,” was written in felt pen on the bag in which the little boy’s body lay. “Hussein al-Mohamed, aged 12 - Qana’,’ “Abbas al-Shalhoub, aged one - Qana.’ And when the Lebanese soldier went to pick up Abbas’s little body, it bounced on his shoulder as the boy might have done on his father’s shoulder on Saturday. In all, there were 56 corpses brought to the Tyre government hospital and other surgeries, and 34 of them were children. When they ran out of plastic bags, they wrapped the small corpses in carpets. Their hair was matted with dust, most had blood running from their noses.

You must have a heart of stone not to feel the outrage that those of us watching this experienced yesterday. This slaughter was an obscenity, an atrocity - yes, if the Israeli air force truly bombs with the “pinpoint accuracy’ it claims, this was also a war crime. Israel claimed that missiles had been fired by Hizbollah gunmen from the south Lebanese town of Qana - as if that justified this massacre. Israel’s Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, talked about “Muslim terror” threatening “western civilisation” - as if the Hizbollah had killed all these poor people.”

Link