What do you think of Israel's response to Hezbollah capturing their soldiers?

[JHE]

Israel, was one of the major sponsors of Hamas.

Dr Frankenstein regretted his achievement too.





What's happening now is horrific.

I just hope the decent critics of Israel's policies make a point of distinguishing themselves from the shits who want Israel to be eradicated. Unfortunately, there is nowadays a tendency for some basically decent people to line up with the smash-Israel lot. I think that's sometimes because they are so naive that they really don't realise that the eradication of Israel is the objective of many.

 

[Fong]

I agree with D-B, and hope it holds true that the traditional Western supporters begin to shun Israel. There's been a mild swing in that direction recently, with places like Switzerland commenting on their behaviour, but it's hard as yet to define it as a pattern.

The way I see it is that all of this behaviour is the product of an immature nation. Politically, almost everything they do is kneejerk and violent. There's no thought involved - no measure, no weighting, no care, no consideration of the long term, just the simplest and crudest response available, every time. I trust it's not sustainable, and that something has to give.

Potential for rather interesting politics in our despatch of Navy resources to evacuate civilians, don't you think?

The problem is, this isn't anything new.

if someone was to attack us in the same manner tomorrow, you could expect us to have a measured response, to be calm and collected about the issue, to perhaps strike back, but to do so in a weighted considerate manner.

However, if we were hit the next day, and the next and so on for years on end, covering entire generations, if you grew up with it all your life, if every single person you knew had been effected by it in someway.

Sooner or later you going to lose your cool, you going to stop being considerate, you going to stop having a measured response and you will lash out and you will find your solace in inflicting the same pain on the enemy that they have inflicted on you, and you will have support from the people for doing it.

I too voted for Israel going overboard, but I can understand why. They live in a place where everyone around them hates them and wants them gone. They live in a place where they are constantly under threat from groups that are apparently free to do whatever they like, while Israel gets the blame. They fire 100s of rockets into Israeli residential areas...Israel gets the blame. They kidnap soldiers by crossing the border, Israel takes the flak. Israel agrees to a peace settlement the other side rejects it on the grounds that it would mean recognition of Israel as a state...Israel get the blame. They pull out of Gaza against the wishes of their own people and putting themselves in possible danger, that danger turns out to be very real, they get the blame.

I am after reading many of these threads begining to understand how the Israeli's must feel.

"Fuck you, who cares what you think, I will defend my land and my people, and if you don't like it, then you come over here and stop these fuckers trying blowing us up, until you are ready to do that, I don't give a shit what you got to say and i don't care if you think I am going overboard, maybe if I go overboard enough these people will think twice before they fire another missile, and if not, then hey, there will be less of em to do it."

Can't you see how constantly being played by terrorist groups who have learnt well that the media is a weapon to be wielded you are not helping.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Let me get this right, Israel is kidnapping 100 Palestinian children every day and their is no comment from anyone on it? Utter and absolute rubbish.

Substantiate that or withdraw it.

no need it's documented dear often with photographs just because you beleive that isreal would never do something like this because your skewed perceptions of this matter are blinded by your own ill thought out durge and this simple fact alone would force you to change your whole philiosphy...

i'd suggest here might be a good place to start your reeducation...

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/home.cfm

 

[Neva]

Not quite the whole story...

This is all true but unfortunately American Generals, the Pentagon etc don't tend to see things like that do they? They see Iran developing nuclear technology which, as you say, could one day be used for weapons and I don't think they're going to be willing to wait ten years and hope it all turns out okay. If they were given the chance to do something about it now they'd take it.

Or so I think anyway but that's just my opinion. No-one can say for sure what's going to happen.

 

[Neva]

as far as i know atm it's in response to over 100 children taken from their homes each and every day and dissappeared or face trumpted up charges and locked up for 5 to 10 that has been doing it ...

no need it's documented dear often with photographs just because you beleive that isreal would never do something like this because your skewed perceptions of this matter are blinded by your own ill thought out durge and this simple fact alone would force you to change your whole philiosphy...

i'd suggest here might be a good place to start your reeducation...

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/home.cfm

Where on the site you linked does it support your statement?

I'm not saying your wrong but when I clicked the link the only facts I could see where in the top right corner which said Total children: Death's 756, and Currently in Detention 388 over a period of six years. If it was one hundred children a day then that figure would be someone where around 214,800.

 

[Sasaferrato]

That acts illegally and in direct contravention of the Geneva Conventions.



If you mean Hamas - they were democratically elected too!



Then the repercussions will echo for years, and Israel has no right to play the part of the wronged party when the terrible acts of retribution continue.

Nine people killed in Haifa. How many Jewish deaths will satisfy you? How many more need be killed before you will allow Israel to defend itself?

 

[Sasaferrato]

no need it's documented dear often with photographs just because you beleive that isreal would never do something like this because your skewed perceptions of this matter are blinded by your own ill thought out durge and this simple fact alone would force you to change your whole philiosphy...

i'd suggest here might be a good place to start your reeducation...

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/home.cfm

That link does not support your ludicrous and libellous assertion. You've been found out to be telling somewhat less than the truth here.

 

[pk]

Nine people killed in Haifa. How many Jewish deaths will satisfy you?

Oh please, grow up. I'm not "satisfied" by Israeli deaths - and for your information I spent some considerable time in Haifa when I worked there, and if you had any idea of what you were talking about you would know that Haifa was a progressive city in terms of Arab and Jew living side by side, it was probably the most left wing city in Israel and until recently was not significantly tainted by sectarian violence.

I think attacking Haifa is a stupid thing to do, the only reason it's a target is because of the limited range of the Katyusha rockets.

It's just as likely that Arabs will be killed by these Haifa attacks.

How many more need be killed before you will allow Israel to defend itself?

Oh for goodness sake, can the Palestinians not defend themselves either?

Seriously - you need to read up on the situation out there, your ignorance on this matter is quite staggering.

 

[Wookey]

I am after reading many of these threads begining to understand how the Israeli's must feel.

"Fuck you, who cares what you think, I will defend my land and my people, and if you don't like it, then you come over here and stop these fuckers trying blowing us up, until you are ready to do that, I don't give a shit what you got to say and i don't care if you think I am going overboard, maybe if I go overboard enough these people will think twice before they fire another missile, and if not, then hey, there will be less of em to do it."

Can't you see how constantly being played by terrorist groups who have learnt well that the media is a weapon to be wielded you are not helping.

I don't think you can talk about 'Israelis' as a monothought unit. I've got Israeli mates who are totally allied to the Palestinian cause, and have ceased trying to defend the actions of their state. Most of them have worn uniform at some point, of course.

 

[Fong]

I don't think you can talk about 'Israelis' as a monothought unit. I've got Israeli mates who are totally allied to the Palestinian cause, and have ceased trying to defend the actions of their state. Most of them have worn uniform at some point, of course.

Then feel free to clarify the statement with:

"the Israeli's that are leading the attacks and those that are happy to see the attacks in defense of their country"

You could have done that yourself of course, suppose it was just a chance of criticism, regardless of how meaningless that criticism was.

 

[Spymaster]

as far as i know atm it's in response to over 100 children taken from their homes each and every day and dissappeared or face trumpted up charges and locked up for 5 to 10 that has been doing it ...

?????



I don't believe this. Could you evidence it please?

Edit> I see some other posters have pulled you on this Garf but the link you provide doesn't support your statement. Got any others?

 

[pk]

Then feel free to clarify the statement with:

"the Israeli's that are leading the attacks and those that are happy to see the attacks in defense of their country"

You could have done that yourself of course, suppose it was just a chance of criticism, regardless of how meaningless that criticism was.

Plenty of Israelis think the hastily assembled administration in the wake of Sharon's illness is a bunch of shit, and that the newly appointed defence ministers are just trying to make a name for themselves.

But they'll be the ones who see the Likud government as the utter bastards they have proved themselves to be, not the part-time fundamentalist Israeli Jews who actually live in Brooklyn most of the year and who usually find a way of attacking Arabs in the loudest voices and support forced evacuation of Palestinian homes to make way for their settler families.

 

[pk]

?????



I don't believe this. Could you evidence it please?

I don't believe it either, not a word of it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Israel seem to work on 'an eye for an eye' basis.
Wasn't it Ghandi who said "The trouble with an eye for an eye is that eventually everyone ends up blind".
How we could do with a Ghandi now in these parts........Or a Jesus figure?

Sorry Jigga, but "an eye for an eye" implies a sense of proportionality that's entirely missing from Israel's response.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nine people killed in Haifa. How many Jewish deaths will satisfy you? How many more need be killed before you will allow Israel to defend itself?

Please stop conflating "Jewish" and "Israeli". As even the Zionists are constantly telling us, Israel has Arabs in its' population too.

If you're doing it through ignorance then educate yourself, if you're doing it disingenuously then you're a fuckwit.

 

[mauvais]

The problem is, this isn't anything new.

if someone was to attack us in the same manner tomorrow, you could expect us to have a measured response, to be calm and collected about the issue, to perhaps strike back, but to do so in a weighted considerate manner.

However, if we were hit the next day, and the next and so on for years on end, covering entire generations, if you grew up with it all your life, if every single person you knew had been effected by it in someway.

I don't agree. The IRA carried out plenty of attacks spread evenly over a long period of time, and I don't recall us sending in fighter jets to blow up bridges, power stations and airports in Ireland.

Yes, there are massive differences, but you would have to be a complete fool to not see that such a path is self-destructive and achieves nothing. It can only serve to satisfy a bloodthirsty portion of the Israeli public. That's not going to work out so well when this conflict never ends.

 

[Fong]

I don't agree. The IRA carried out plenty of attacks spread evenly over a long period of time, and I don't recall us sending in fighter jets to blow up bridges, power stations and airports in Ireland.

Yes, there are massive differences, but you would have to be a complete fool to not see that such a path is self-destructive and achieves nothing. It can only serve to satisfy a bloodthirsty portion of the Israeli public. That's not going to work out so well when this conflict never ends.

I don't doubt the foolishness of their actions, I also don't condone their actions in anyway.

I merely stated that given the reactionary blame that was laid at the door of Israel regardless of what happens, that it is hardly surprising.

Also, you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that this conflict WILL never end unless Israel gives up its home, and since it is not prepared to do that, there is NO foreseeable end to this conflict. If Israel decides to inflict such damage on their enemy that they know will never stop, in an effort to slow them down, then frankly I am bewildered by the idea that we should blame them solely for that action.

Oh and I ignored your IRA statement, because like you said, there are massive differences and it really isn't even worth the time following that line of thinking. But I will give you a simple difference that is soo massive as to make your point irrelevent.

The IRA was never bent on the destruction of England, that was not their goal, that is not their stated agenda and they were happy to compromise for devolution of power. Hamas, Hezbollah are not interested in compromise, they are not interested in an agreement or devolution of power, their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. I am sure if we faced an enemy whose stated aim was our destruction and took action against us 10 or 100 times more often then the IRA actually did, then our response may have been slightly different.

 

[mauvais]

Fair enough, but I suppose that's where we differ. I don't believe there is no end. I don't believe that it is impossible for Israelis and their present enemies to peacefully coexist. In fact, I think it that before too long it may even be entirely necessary.

I don't believe that Hamas and Hezbollah's claims to want to eradicate Israel are of any real significance, any more than say someone in the IRA wanting to eradicate Brits from NI. I believe it's rhetoric, albeit very dangerous rhetoric. In this way it's no different to "we will turn the clock back 20 years".

 

[Lock&Light]

I don't believe that Hamas and Hezbollah's claims to want to eradicate Israel are of any real significance,

Not surprisingly the Israelis don't see it quite that way.

 

[Fong]

Fair enough, but I suppose that's where we differ. I don't believe there is no end. I don't believe that it is impossible for Israelis and their present enemies to peacefully coexist. In fact, I think it that before too long it may even be entirely necessary.

I don't believe that Hamas and Hezbollah's claims to want to eradicate Israel are of any real significance, any more than say someone in the IRA wanting to eradicate Brits from NI. I believe it's rhetoric, albeit very dangerous rhetoric. In this way it's no different to "we will turn the clock back 20 years".

Like I said earlier in response to VP perhaps even in a different thread.

You can't argue that these people are using Rhetoric or Pandering to the people, unless you admit that this is what the people are thinking and desiring.

These expressions wouldn't be uttered if there was not a deep underlying feeling amongst a lot of people that Israel should be eradicated. While there is a lot of people that feel that way, then there can never be an end to the conflict.

The moment the rhetoric and the pandering stops, then you can atleast begin to think that perhaps attitudes are changing, but after what 60 years of it, its a bit naive to think that it will ever end while that continues.

 

[mauvais]

I'm sure plenty of people feel very strongly that that is what they want to happen. I'm sure plenty of Israelis want the same thing from their side.

However what I'm trying to say is I believe there will come a point long before either of those conclusions come about where this simply falls away. If the Israelis concede some of their land but in doing so manage to gain a lasting security, then won't that be enough? If the Palestinians can't reclaim as much territory as they desire but do achieve a viable state with a genuine future and no Israeli interference/oppression, won't that be enough?

I don't know enough about Hezbollah/Lebanon to comment on them, but I suspect that below any party here there are next to no unwavering goals that must be achieved at all costs. I simply do not believe that there must, or indeed will, be a black or white end.

 

[Fong]

I'm sure plenty of people feel very strongly that that is what they want to happen. I'm sure plenty of Israelis want the same thing from their side.

I disagree with this statement.

I don't believe that there are many Israeli's at all that wish to see the total destruction of Palestine or Lebanon.

I think that is the difference between the two groups in this conflict.

Of course there are the most extreme edges of Israeli politics, but can you really call the Leader of Iran an extreme edge? Can you really call 23 elected members of Hezbollah and the election of Hamas that won't even recognise Israel as a state, the extreme edges, I don't think you can.

You don't seem to understand the situation Mauvis, Israel can't concede some of its land and find lasting peace and security.

It isn't going to happen until attitudes change from the other side. Which is why it annoys me soo much when people just lay all the blame at the feet of Israel.

Hamas won't even recognise Israel as a state.

How can you negotiate with someone that won't even recognise your right to exist? Not your right to this piece of land or that piece of land, but your very right to exist there at all.

Until that changes, there can never be peace in the area.

 

[fishfingerer]

Oh yeah? That'll include Haughey, I take it,who was under suspicion of running guns for the IRA, and a lot else besides.

The Irish government were able to pass extradition legislation and ban sinn fein (who had a whopping 2% of the vote in 1982) from broadcasting because most people in the republic didn't give a fuck about the north. Only when the British state did something extraordinarily stupid like allow loyalist mobs to burn communities out of their homes, plant bombs in Dublin and Monaghan, massacre people on demonstrations, and allow hunger strikers to die, did support for the IRA, both passive and active, tend to grow. If you knew anything about Ireland, you'd know that sending in the black and tans in 1920 to do what you're proposing now, had the exact opposite of the intended effect.

If the paras should have been sent in anywhere,they should have gone into Boston and New York, cos that's where the IRA's cash and support came from. And maybe give north London a good kicking as well while we're at it, quite a few micks there. Now consider how unlikely (and fucking stupid) that would have been.

The pure ignorance of the average English tory is only fucking staggering.*


*I did see John Major talking a bit of sense about the Israel Lebanon thing on telly today though.

 

[detective-boy]

As an ex member of what has been slated as the most corrupt police force in the country, I quite understand that you are now incapable of separating fact from fiction.

Join your mayor in Jew baiting, seems quite fashionable in London these days.

So who's routinely shelling the palestinain beaches then?

Who's driving the bulldozers rampaging through the Gaza Strip?

You really are a fucking wanker sometimes.

 

[detective-boy]

I have this quite absurd view that if a country is attacked, it has the right to defend itself, this defence may carry the battle over the enemies borders.

Unless, of course, that country is Palestine. Or Lebanon. Or, in fact, anywhere else you don't like.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The Irish government were able to pass extradition legislation and ban sinn fein (who had a whopping 2% of the vote in 1982) from broadcasting because most people in the republic didn't give a fuck about the north. Only when the British state did something extraordinarily stupid like allow loyalist mobs to burn communities out of their homes, plant bombs in Dublin and Monaghan, massacre people on demonstrations, and allow hunger strikers to die, did support for the IRA, both passive and active, tend to grow. If you knew anything about Ireland, you'd know that sending in the black and tans in 1920 to do what you're proposing now, had the exact opposite of the intended effect.

If the paras should have been sent in anywhere,they should have gone into Boston and New York, cos that's where the IRA's cash and support came from. And maybe give north London a good kicking as well while we're at it, quite a few micks there. Now consider how unlikely (and fucking stupid) that would have been.

The pure ignorance of the average English tory is only fucking staggering.*


*I did see John Major talking a bit of sense about the Israel Lebanon thing on telly today though.

Wonderful. Overnight I've become English. You REALLY don't have a clue.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So who's routinely shelling the palestinain beaches then?

Who's driving the bulldozers rampaging through the Gaza Strip?

You really are a fucking wanker sometimes.

Try and learn to read. I withdrew the remark about you, however, from your post above you do remain a fuckwit class one with bar.

Edited to add: Your dim mental faculties obviously missed the Israeli evacuation of Gaza.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Unless, of course, that country is Palestine. Or Lebanon. Or, in fact, anywhere else you don't like.

Who fired rockets at whom? Who kidnapped the other's soldiers? Who killed 8 people in Haifa today? Noddy, was it? If all coppers are as dim as you no bloody wonder the crime clear up rates are so bloody dismal.

 

[mauvais]

How many uniformed soldiers on each side have been kidnapped recently?

How many civilians on each side have been killed in Israeli areas recently?

The evidence is damning.

 

[Kanda]

Who fired rockets at whom? Who kidnapped the other's soldiers? Who killed 8 people in Haifa today? Noddy, was it? If all coppers are as dim as you no bloody wonder the crime clear up rates are so bloody dismal.

Are you able to post here without taking it to personal insults?? Geezus!!

23 dead in Lebanon too btw.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5185624.stm

More than 120 Lebanese have died since clashes with Israel began on Wednesday.