What do you know about Irelands 1916 Rising?

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by Cheesypoof, Mar 24, 2016.

  1. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    Share your thoughts here. I dont want to assume that it is not taught well at school in England, etc,
  2. DotCommunist

    DotCommunist slowtime

    all I know is that it ended in executions, which as everyone knows is the sure fire way to put down a rebellion against the crown right? That went well. I've not looked deep into the actual easter uprising, no more than listening to references in songs and a scan of wiki plus some background info (scant) provided in my own readings about the later troubles of the anglo-irish civil war that kicked off huge in '69

    Oh and I've watched 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' which gives me a little fictional based example of how the irish reds were done over.
  3. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    It makes me so sad reading that, did you not learn the full history of what happened in school? Its a factual part of Englands history, and although Prime Minister Asquith (preocuppied with the first World War at the time) made a mistake at the end (sending in a military barbarian in, General Maxwell, who had no experience of Ireland and ordered executions, which was a stupid idea the empire never really intended for Ireland and never repeated again in any country). As Micheal Portillo said, the other night, in a documentary from 'The Enemy's point of view, the execution of the seven rebels - all artists - made the English seem inhumane, shabby and sacreligious.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
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  4. DotCommunist

    DotCommunist slowtime

    nope. And we studied the roaring '20s in america. You know why (to my suspicious mind) ? because studying 20s-30s UK history means detailing labours rise, labour as in workers movement rather than party (although that also goes way back to the same period as the easter uprising and before, in both countries). They probably ignore the easter uprising for the same reasons. Don't let the kids know there are alternatives and sometimes the bastards get their due when collective response overwhelms the forces of the government. They don't teach us about the malayan 'emergency' the putting down of the mau maus or any of that shit. I left school with only vaugue knowledge that the Empire was bad because we shouldn't have stolen their resources and so on. Looks a lot grimmer when you do your own reading.

    But no, roaring 20s and some eyewatering lies about the cold war. School is to train the next generation of worker, not make him or her doubt the validity of the state after all!

    Even studying ww1 we didn't hear of the Indian regiments, promised some autonomy that never came, the etaples mutiny, the battlefield executions on working class conscripts who were (rightly) too scared to run into an active machine gun. I'd hope the focus of teaching might have got better in the 15 years since I was there though.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  5. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat meh

    don't think it was even mentioned when I was at school (although I got shoved in to dropping history before starting O Levels - parents had decided I was going to be a scientist no matter what - :mad: ) - we did history a bit patchwork and I remember doing a reasonable bit in 3rd year at secondary school on the Russian revolution.
  6. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    As its our centenary year of this rebellion week, there have been brilliant documentaries on Irish TV every day, including - I was impressed to see - a documentary one week about the women that took part in in the Rising and were rebel soldiers themselves. In Gaeilge we call these ladies Mna Na HEireann (women of Ireland) These women did tonnes of work as soldiers and were led by the one and only Countess Markievicz - leader of the womens garrison and, in her previous incarnation, a society lady, actress, and Anglo Irish artist). She was born and raised in London.

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  7. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    I'm using a computer standing up and reading and writing at the same time, so roughly, thank you for your honesty and appreciate it - having never studied 'literature' officially myself - i am 'catching up and for example, ordered myself Flann O' Brien's two novellas: At Swim two birds, and The Third Policeman' as i have read his short stories and know that the surrealist comedy i enjoy by the Rubberbandits is inspired by him. I stand, with this knowledge. Another pocket of joy is Zelda Fitzgeralds story - here's the thing. Firstly, her essay on how to be a Flapper, think its called Eulogy of a Flapper, from around 1922 is a must read. I cant express more to Urban readers to read authentic original works by people before you comment. Things from the 20' and 30's - folks assume are dated but how wrong you can be. Takes patience and time and honesty to look back correctly. And intelligence too. I have read her letters to F Scott and sometimes i stand outside, dizzy on their dream and i then reflect on their love story....and theres one rather - depend how you interpret it - comment, made about Zelda around 1928 - 'When Zelda Sayre came to the party, everybody went home.' Now, you can interpret that how you want but i see it as fairly sour. Especially given the time it was said and her state of mind.Do i revere F Scott and The Great Gatsby??? NO. i dont like it. Do i revere HER, Zelda and reckon she was a genius? well judging from the passion of her letters: YES. Its an unfinished story.

    Back to 1916 - well most of the chaps that were executed were poets and writers - this is why the prime ministers and subsequent guys like Churchill afterwards deeply regretted the mistakes made.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  8. DotCommunist

    DotCommunist slowtime

    while I struggle to believe that the churchills of this world regretted anything other than a tactical mistake that lost the Empire a huge chunk of what were considered the home islands, from my magpie reading knowledge I get the impression 1916 was a military failure but laid the ground for an eventual irish republican mass movement, iirc Gladstone was all for giving all of ireland over to its people rather than the crown but the whole Ulster Covenant and intransigence of northern county prods, convinced that their lot lay in with the british state and their social advantages would be eroded- the great feared catholic backlash and all that shit- led to this half measure we have today and is still defended by the likes of the DUP etc.
    And belfast still has walls between communities, as you know. The evil we do to ourselves and is done to us.

    but as I say my knowledge of these matters is by no means complete.
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  9. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    Your 'knowledge' as you say, is not bad at all. Where did you hear about the Rising?

    I am off to bed. Good night x
  10. DotCommunist

    DotCommunist slowtime

    Did a house clearance once and came across a trove of irish history books. Some about UVF gunrunning, some about the transformation of ireland, some about irish history in the medieval period. Even one by Ian Paisely called 'Ulster: the Facts' which as you can imagine is not exactly an objective tome. Got a lot from them on terms of what and where. Plus I've been readin somewhat semi-obsessively about the troubles post '69 and trying to get my head around how and why. No easy answers anywhere.

    gnight cheese x
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  11. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    Dottie - the documentary the other night on the women of the Rising was truly moving. They were suffragettes in the truest sense - After the Dev government came into power lots of the original ideals were destroyed (and even some of the photos where women soliders were included were subsequently airburshed (estimated during a highly Catholic government of the 30s)!!!) - contrary to both our proclamation and also our democratic document of 1919 which is very secular, in favour of the child , women and very modern and completely non religious - these were the values of the men and women soliders of 1916 - total equals - thankfully - today, we have a modern Ireland that embraces those original values without religion. So in todays broadly athiest and highly inclusive Ireland the ideas that the artists from 1916 prophesised - the artists who were murdered by the British and were remembered by the Queen when she laid a wreath for them in our Remembrance Garden and wore white when she visited in 2011 - have been realised, at a big cost.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
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  12. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    i dont foist any blame, by the way, towards the modern British. Its part of the Empires history and how it manhandled a very bad situation in one of its colonies that wanted, and eventually achieved, freedom, but through violence. Scholars say there were chances for intervention beforehand, but I think, given previous futile efforts for 200 years, home rule and the rich cultural movement that preceded these tensions (includes the foundation of the Gaelic League, also the Abbey theatre by WB Yeats and Lady Gregory); in 1916 you have to understand that Ireland really felt like a republic and were on their way to becoming one within a few years - in 1916 you also have the business of WW1 and Englands unavailability, negotiations between the two countries never stood a chance. Ireland was ripe for rebellion and as the famous saying goes: 'Englands difficulty was Ireland's opportunity' - which sowed the seeds for our freedom today :)
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  13. LeslieB

    LeslieB Banned Banned

    Do you not think women's rights in Ireland would have come about sooner had Ireland remained part of the UK?

    Women and gay men were two groups that got a terrible deal out of Irish independence, IMHO
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  14. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    How so? You know that the Proclamation of the Rising and subsequent Democratic Document of 1919 supported women as equal citizens to men, right?

    That's cos Dev came into power, and himself and Bishop McQuaid wrote our constitution - it was a hairs breadth away from being a theocratic state, but even Dev wouldnt go that far. The result was puritanical and even Roger Casement's involvement was played down for years - allegedly because he was gay.
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  15. two sheds

    two sheds Least noticed poster 2007

    One of my favourite books, wonderful imagery - one of the few I can still visualise scenes from 25 years after having read it.
    krtek a houby, Greebo and Cheesypoof like this.
  16. weltweit

    weltweit Well-Known Member

    I know virtually nothing of the Easter uprising, was never taught it at school and didn't learn about it on my own account. It has been quite interesting learning a bit about it now.
    Cheesypoof likes this.
  17. Cheesypoof

    Cheesypoof Fuck off Noddy Banned

    I started 'At Swim Two Birds' the other night and its incredible! And very funny. Can't wait to read The Third Policeman too :cool:.
    two sheds likes this.
  18. two sheds

    two sheds Least noticed poster 2007

    Think I have that somewhere, must give it a try. :)
  19. peterkro

    peterkro Greasin' on American Express card.

    I never learn't anything at school about the uprising (possibly by not attending school much from age ten) but I was very much informed by oral history from my family in NZ a surprising number of NZ people are from an Irish background and I never forgave my father for saying to my mother in times of conflict "that's just the Irish coming out in you" (not that I didn't have other reasons for thinking he was a prick).But the story of Irish Republicanism runs deep and wide in the country.
    E2a: big up to the Third Policeman as well still remember it in detail 40 odd years after I first read it.
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  20. nino_savatte

    nino_savatte No pasaran!

    I learnt about it through reading about it. Although, it is possible I heard about it too, but it was such a long time ago. I went to American schools where we were told that it was the Mexicans who started the Mexican-American War. So any history outside the borders of the United States was quite simply ignored.
  21. souljacker

    souljacker A bit of skullduggery

    I went to school in the 80's and the only thing we learnt about the Irish was that they liked a drink and liked blowing up the English. To be honest, I knew nothing about the Easter rising until I went to Dublin with Mrs Soul about 10 years ago and someone told me to look out for the bullet holes in the Post Office on O'Connel street.

    I still don't know much about it. I've read up on the troubles over the years and was amazed that the reality of the situation was far removed from the narrative that came from the BBC/British Govt.
    Cheesypoof likes this.
  22. dylanredefined

    dylanredefined Not a house elf a tiger

    Nothing taught at school.
  23. LeslieB

    LeslieB Banned Banned

    Does anyone know if women had the vote from day one in RoI?

    Most other progressive changes seem to have come in earlier in the UK than in the RoI. For example homosexuality was illegal until 1993, contraception until the 1980s

    I do realise that Ireland has caught up since, apart of course from abortion.
  24. nino_savatte

    nino_savatte No pasaran!

    Er, what does any of this have to do with the Easter Rising? Nada. Oh and women didn't get the vote in the UK until 1928, many years after its colony in New Zealand granted women the right to vote. The Irish Free State gave women the vote upon independence in 1922.

    Are you familiar with James Connolly, by any chance? Padraig Pearse? Constance Markievicz? Roger Casement?
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
  25. bi0boy

    bi0boy Power User

    I went to school in the 90's and we did a whole term of Irish history in year 9. We went from the 1641 rebellion right through to contemporary parade disputes.

    This was National Curriculum stuff as far as I am aware so they must have decided it was important at some point.
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  26. Ax^

    Ax^ Silly Rabbit

    ah the catholic church had Ireland by the nads for the best part of the last 100 years

    its only since the child abuse scandal and the effects of the Celtic tiger bullshit that

    they lost the hold they had

    not sure what more to say on the matter

    we still better off than still being a part of the uk
  27. LeslieB

    LeslieB Banned Banned

    Just about, no and no. In that order.

    I think it is perfectly valid to compare the ideals of the revolutionaries with what eventually came about. See also Russia, France, Cuba etc etc
  28. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Best leave him nino, he had to have two tries to get that response - just ignore him.
    Pickman's model and nino_savatte like this.
  29. LeslieB

    LeslieB Banned Banned

    Why? Serious question. In what practical ways is everyday life in Ireland better/different now because it isn't a part of the UK?
  30. Idris2002

    Idris2002 Sandy 4 Names

    It wasn't just Dev - the Cumman na nGaedhal crowd were even more reactionary than he was - it was they, and not he, who were the first to make divorce illegal (though since I wrote that I've tried to check on wiki and I can't find a supporting quote - anyone else know?).
    You're assuming that any progressive changes that happened in the "real" UK would automatically be implemented in the other island also. That's a big ask: the case of the Northern Irish statelet provides a lot of evidence to the contrary. At present abortion law is well behind both realUK and the Republic.

    There's another point: there's no good reason to assume that those progressive changes in realUK would have happened if the British state hadn't lost such a large portion of its territory in the home islands. For more than a generation before 1916, Ireland had been a major disruptive factor in British politics, splitting the liberal party and driving the Tories to connive at mutiny in the armed forces. A British political order that continues to have an Irish ulcer - potentially as bad as the Six Counties after 1969 but on a larger scale - is not going to be stable, and may be unstable in a way that makes the space for progressive politics much narrower.
    LeslieB likes this.

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