What Do People Think of Hamas, and Why?

[Spion]

It was thinking about starting a new thread with the title "What does Hamas achieve by firing missiles at Israel" but I think I'll collect my thoughts here instead as there are already tons of threads on this conflict and starting a new thread that might say something "controversial" just exposes me to accusations of cuntishness!

Anyway, I don't like Hamas, never have, never will. I don't like any Islamist group or any religious extremists whatsoever (and of course, that includes the Jewish Settlers in the West Bank who, imo, are THE major impediment to peace). Anyway, whatever I think of Hamas is certainly no justification to do what Israel did to Gaza. However, I don't think Israel would have attacked Gaza had Hamas not fired any missiles into Israel. If I were living in Gaza, and I looked up and saw Hamas missiles firing into Israel I'd think to myself "yea, cheers lads." It begs the question: What does Hamas achieve by firing missiles into Israel?

The aim of any Palestinian political group should be ending the occupation of the West Bank (including the removal of the Settlements) and ending the siege of Gaza (ie creating a viable Palestinian state). Perhaps there was a time during the 60s, 70s and maybe even the 80s where a military solution from the Palestinian (and Arab) side might have achieved such an end but now? No way. The Arab countries deserted the Palestinians long ago and treat them as second class citizens wherever they settle. Israel has the backing of America and is more than capable of looking after itself on its own. The Palestinians will not achieve a military victory over Israel, and certainly not with the pathetic rocket attacks.

The rockets' only purpose seems to be to give Israel an excuse to attack Gaza. Is that what Hamas wanted? Everyone (including the media) seem pretty convinced that the Israeli leadership attacked Gaza to show their strength before the upcoming elections, did Hamas do exactly the same? Maybe the people of Gaza became so upset about their situation thanks to the blockade that they were ready to give up their support for Hamas in exchange for an end to the siege? Giving Israel an excuse to do what they did to Gaza could boost support for Hamas (certainly around the world thousands have marched in support of Hamas).

Is this whole conflict just designed by the participants to boost their respective political support?

The assault on Gaza is reported to have been planned at least 6 months before it started. The spark for the assault was rocket fire that came in response to an Israeli raid (targetted assassination, which is illegal according to UN rules re occupying powers) that broke the ceasefire on Nov 4.

The Israeli Haaretz, November 5, 2008: “Israel Defense Forces troops yesterday killed a Hamas gunman and wounded two others in the first armed clash in the Gaza Strip since a cease-fire was declared there in June. […] An Israeli army spokeswoman said troops had entered the territory.”

The Israeli Yediot Ahronot, November 5, 2008: “For the first time since the ceasefire took effect in June, IDF forces operated deep in the Gaza Strip Tuesday night.”

The Times (UK), November 5, 2008: “A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought.”

Amnesty International, November 10, 2008: “A spate of Israeli and Palestinian attacks and counter-attacks in the past 24 hours could spell the end of a five-and-a-half-month ceasefire. […] The killing of six Palestinian militants in Gaza by Israeli forces in a ground incursion and air strikes on 4 November was followed by a barrage of dozens of Palestinian rockets.”

The Guardian, November 5, 2008: “Hamas militants fired more than 35 rockets into Israel today, hours after the Israeli army killed six people inside the Gaza Strip in the first major exchange of fire since a truce took effect in June.”

The Independent, November 5, 2008: “Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip fired more than 35 rockets towards Israel today, the army and the Islamist group said, hours after the Israeli army killed six militants in the coastal territory.”

From http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarks...the-6-month-ceasefire-in-israelpalestine.html

 

[CyberRose]

That's exactly what they did

The assault on Gaza is reported to have been planned at least 6 months before it started

I'm not going to argue over who broke the ceasefire first because we both know that the argument can be made easily by both sides. My question was, despite who broke the ceasefire first, what exactly does Hamas achieve by firing rockets into Israel?

 

[kyser_soze]

What do urbanites think? Why do you hold your view?

Hamas are cunts, but they're a lesser breed of cunt than the IDF and Isreali govt at the moment.

 

[Spion]

I'm not going to argue over who broke the ceasefire first because we both know that the argument can be made easily by both sides. My question was, despite who broke the ceasefire first, what exactly does Hamas achieve by firing rockets into Israel?

a) a response to the choking of Gaza by its control over the border crossings, ie the blockade b) a response to IDF targetted assassinations.

Here is one rocket firer in his own words:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,531578,00.html

'"We are ready to die; that is the price of our freedom." He says that the Palestinians are left with no other choice but to fight the Israelis with weapons. "Either we resist, or they treat us like slaves." He has thought about who is hit by his rockets. "If we kill soldiers, then we are more than happy," he says. "If it hits a child, then naturally we are not happy."'

Hamas has offered truces galore, including a 10 year one, anbd has said it is prepared to recognise the 67 borders. There's good grounds for believing that a major current of thought in the Israeli state wants to make life so shitty there that the Palestinians drift away and they ultimately gain Gaza

 

[winjer]

I'm not going to argue over who broke the ceasefire first because we both know that the argument can be made easily by both sides.

We do not both know that, it cannot easily be made by Israel, and you should stop pretending that "they've both been as bad as each other" is a neutral position.

 

[CyberRose]

a) a response to the choking of Gaza by its control over the border crossings, ie the blockade b) a response to IDF targetted assassinations.

No come on, that's an observation of what has happened. How is firing rockets into Israel going to help Hamas or the Palestinians of Gaza end the siege and end the occupation of the West Bank?

Also, let's say Israel did break the truce first, they assassinated a number of Hamas officials, but Israel's actions then wasn't the same as the devastation they have dished out in the last few weeks. I don't know how Hamas should have reacted to the assassinations, but launching all those rockets was guaranteed to provoke the response that Israel eventually put into plan. That was a guaranteed death sentence to hundreds of Palestinians but I just don't know what Hamas hoped to achieve from that? I can't think of anything that a classic guerilla tactic of getting your enemy to pulverise your community in order to gain maximum support from them...

If that wasn't the case, I honestly cannot think what Hamas hoped to achieve from firing rockets into Israel...?

 

[CyberRose]

We do not both know that, it cannot easily be made by Israel, and you should stop pretending that "they've both been as bad as each other" is a neutral position.

Well your own graph shows rockets fired at Israel before Israel assassinated those Hamas officials, so there's an argument right there. And before you come back with "yea but that was mainly IJ" I'll tell you know I'm not making that argument and it's irrelevant to my question whether it was Israel or Hamas who broke the ceasefire first...

 

[Spion]

I don't know how Hamas should have reacted to the assassinations, but launching all those rockets was guaranteed to provoke the response that Israel eventually put into plan.

If that was the case then Israel would have regularly launched three week campaigns that killed 1,000-plus people and destroyed hundreds of buildings.

It has only done it once so far in a campaign that was planned months ago, and in the run up to an election where the incumbent leaders needed to regain prestige after the Lebanon failure, and in the gap before a new US president comes into office.

Stop being so naive

And did you read the article about the rocket firer?

 

[Spion]

it's irrelevant to my question whether it was Israel or Hamas who broke the ceasefire first...

it's not irrelevant to the real world tho. It demonstrates Israel had plans to batter Gaza and that it had nothing to do with rocket fire

 

[CyberRose]

it's not irrelevant to the real world tho. It demonstrates Israel had plans to batter Gaza and that it had nothing to do with rocket fire

Ok ok, let's say Israel wanted an all out war in Gaza. Let's say the assassinations in November was designed to provoke Hamas into firing all those rockets that would provide the pretence for Israel launching their all out attack against Gaza...would they have been able to get away with it had Hamas not responded with dozens of rockets in response to the assassinations?

 

[ymu]

No come on, that's an observation of what has happened. How is firing rockets into Israel going to help Hamas or the Palestinians of Gaza end the siege and end the occupation of the West Bank?

Also, let's say Israel did break the truce first, they assassinated a number of Hamas officials, but Israel's actions then wasn't the same as the devastation they have dished out in the last few weeks. I don't know how Hamas should have reacted to the assassinations, but launching all those rockets was guaranteed to provoke the response that Israel eventually put into plan. That was a guaranteed death sentence to hundreds of Palestinians but I just don't know what Hamas hoped to achieve from that? I can't think of anything that a classic guerilla tactic of getting your enemy to pulverise your community in order to gain maximum support from them...

If that wasn't the case, I honestly cannot think what Hamas hoped to achieve from firing rockets into Israel...?

And what happens when they don't fire rockets? It's not like the Palestinians are free when Hamas is reigning in the men of violence. The media ignores what's happening on a day-to-day basis and the myth of Israel as a democratic state is lapped up by the editors.

The fact that so many people can observe the wholly disproportionate action by Israel and still state that Hamas brought it all on themselves is testament to the power of the media narrative Israel has designed. There were a couple of car bombs in my city a few years ago. Should the British government have gone and bombed the fuck out of West Belfast and sent troops into the Shankill Road? Would a thousand casualties have been sufficient, or do you reckon we'd have been baying for more?

Israel occupied Gaza and the West Bank in 1967. The first intifada broke out in 1987 and was almost wholly non-violent in nature. Since then, Palestine has been all-but-granted a state by the Oslo agreement which has steadily been dismantled by Israel ever since, with 150,000 new settles in the West Bank, more than doubling the pre-Oslo total, economic blockades and less freedom of movement and political autonomy in the Palestinian territories than ever.

What is it now, four? five? thousand Palestinians dead since 2000, a third of them children. But no, Hamas fired a few rockets. Israel's done fuck all wrong.

 

[kyser_soze]

it's not irrelevant to the real world tho. It demonstrates Israel had plans to batter Gaza and that it had nothing to do with rocket fire

Well there's this thing that all armed forces do called 'contingency planning'. What this involves is imagining possible scenarios where you might need to deploy your forces. Now I would imagine that 'Rocket attacks from Hamas' features pretty high up the IDFs list of 'Probable scenarios leading to conflict' and since the IDF has a reasonable level of experience of invading Gaza, they've probably got about a dozen alternative strategies mapped out somewhere, including nuking the place.

Stop letting your righteousness interfere with your commonsense.

 

[winjer]

And before you come back with "yea but that was mainly IJ" I'll tell you know I'm not making that argument and it's irrelevant to my question whether it was Israel or Hamas who broke the ceasefire first...

Israel never opened the border crossings, Israel never started following the terms of the ceasefire.

 

[quimcunx]

Hamas are cunts, but they're a lesser breed of cunt than the IDF and Isreali govt at the moment.

Why do you think they are cunts? Do you think it is right for the UK and other powers to refuse to engage with them?

 

[CyberRose]

What is it now, four? five? thousand Palestinians dead since 2000, a third of them children. But no, Hamas fired a few rockets. Israel's done fuck all wrong.

Ya know, I really wanted to quit writing in the Politics Forum, especially this forum, but I find it really interesting to debate issues that I see as important, so I continued. You and replies like yours above are the reason I wanted to stop writing in here. I can understand this is a sensitive issue that people feel strongly about, but I've never said Israel has done no wrong, the opposite in fact, yet here you are, accusing me of supporting Israel's conflict? I just don't get some people and what goes on in their heads. I know I don't support Hamas, but that doesn't mean I support Israel either. I've said it plenty of times about this conflict, but it's not a football match you watch and pick sides depending on who you'd prefer to win...

 

[CyberRose]

Israel never opened the border crossings, Israel never started following the terms of the ceasefire.

Do you think firing rockets into Israel would help open the border crossings?!

 

[kyser_soze]

Why do you think they are cunts? Do you think it is right for the UK and other powers to refuse to engage with them?

Their social policies are shite - theologically based, very restrictive on personal beliefs and freedoms, vehemently homophobic.

I think it's a point to make to not engage, but ultimately a hollow one - they're an elected body, and someone at some point will have to say 'OK, we're going to start talking'

 

[winjer]

You and replies like yours above are the reason I wanted to stop writing in here. I can understand this is a sensitive issue that people feel strongly about, but I've never said Israel has done no wrong, the opposite in fact, yet here you are, accusing me of supporting Israel's conflict?

But your question "Is this whole conflict just designed by the participants to boost their respective political support?" take as its basis the proposition that had there been no rockets, Israel would have greeted Hamas with fruit and flowers, which is plainly bollocks.

 

[winjer]

Their social policies are shite - theologically based, very restrictive on personal beliefs and freedoms

Examples?

 

[kyser_soze]

Well, as I mentioned, the vehement homophobia.

 

[hipipol]

Well, as I mentioned, the vehement homophobia.

The Rasta down my way and not known as mates of "de Batty Bwoy dem"
Equally large sections of the UK population

I hardly see that as reason for claiming they are "Terrorists"

 

[frogwoman]

The Rasta down my way and not known as mates of "de Batty Bwoy dem"
Equally large sections of the UK population

time to get the white phosphorous out me thinks

 

[Spion]

Well there's this thing that all armed forces do called 'contingency planning'. What this involves is imagining possible scenarios where you might need to deploy your forces. Now I would imagine that 'Rocket attacks from Hamas' features pretty high up the IDFs list of 'Probable scenarios leading to conflict'

Oh, how lovely and neutral that all sounds . . . you do know the IDF provoked those rocket attacks, don't you? And they have not responded with this magnitude of force to thousands of them in the past which shows this was no run of the mill exchange.

So, you have to ask why they did what they did now, and I think it's a combination of Kadima electioneering, the gap in the US presidency and long term plans to make life unbearable in Gaza for Palestinians.

 

[frogwoman]

time to get the white phosphorous out me thinks

if homophobia is the new way to justify war crimes then why not drop a huge nuclear bomb on the home counties and be done with it???

it's the only way

 

[kyser_soze]

Oh, how lovely and neutral that all sounds . . . the IDF provoked those rocket attacks. And they have not responded with this magnitude of force to thousands of them in the past.

So, you have to ask why they did what they did now, and I think it's a combination of Kadima electioneering, the gap in the US presidency and long term plans to make life unbearable in Gaza for Palestinians.

What's the point in trying to engage with you? Unless someone says 'Yes, Israel specifically spent 6 months planning this in order to conduct business as usual in Gaza' you'll always pick fault.

 

[frogwoman]

Their social policies are shite - theologically based, very restrictive on personal beliefs and freedoms, vehemently homophobic.

I think it's a point to make to not engage, but ultimately a hollow one - they're an elected body, and someone at some point will have to say 'OK, we're going to start talking'

do you think if someone tried to pay israel to bomb any random small town or village in Tory middle England because they didn't like "teh gayz" they'd do it?

 

[CyberRose]

But your question "Is this whole conflict just designed by the participants to boost their respective political support?" take as its basis the proposition that had there been no rockets, Israel would have greeted Hamas with fruit and flowers, which is plainly bollocks.

Actually my question was what do Hamas hope to achieve by firing rockets at Israel. Boosting support amongst your community was my attempt at answering the question. If you have an alternative explanation as to what Hamas hopes to achieve by firing rockets at Israel I'd be glad to hear it, hence me asking.

And please can you point to where I said "had there been no rockets, Israel would have greeted Hamas with fruit and flowers", because I don't recall making that remark...

 

[winjer]

Well, as I mentioned, the vehement homophobia.

But you provided examples of nothing, hence my question.

 

[Spion]

What's the point in trying to engage with you? Unless someone says 'Yes, Israel specifically spent 6 months planning this in order to conduct business as usual in Gaza' you'll always pick fault.

I said Israel had a plan to do this

You said all militaries have plans

I said you have to ask why they provoked and invoked those plans now and not at other times

If you think that's a dreadfully unreasonable line of argument I suggest you step away from the screen and chill for a bit

 

[kyser_soze]

I really don't follow this - I was responding to something I think quimcunx said about whether it was right or wrong to engage with Hamas, and I said 'It doesn't really matter because it'll have to happen eventually' and I happen to think that another power base for a repressive form of Islam is not necessarily a Good Thing. I called them cunts because of this, and made specific reference to their homophobia.

Quite frankly I'm at the point where nuking the whole region is my preferred option.