What Do People Think of Hamas, and Why?

[quimcunx]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I don't have time to read properly or respond as I've just woken up and am trying to work up the energy to attend another demo; I'm late already.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Yes I would, I'd be well fucking pissed off with them. Fuck them and fuck their predecessors and fuck Israel too. If I were them, I'd concentrate any ability I had above basic survival into garnering support from the outside world for my right to live where I live without threat of being killed.

Well you can't say that for sure until you live in the same conditions as the Gazans. It's easy to sit here in safety and condemn people we've never met nor truly understand.

 

[ViolentPanda]

As a Jew I don't trust HAMAS, but as a rational human being I accept that they are the duly elected government of the people of Gaza, that they contributed immensely to the welfare of the citizens of the Gaza strip over the last 15 years, and that much as I don't trust them, that they and the Gazan people in general have done nothing that deserves the scale of military assault being used against their territory.

 

[nino_savatte]

MYTH ALERT 2

Hamas is not the only organisation that fies rockets. Many have also been fired by the fatah-connected Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, as well as by islamic Jihad.

And why do they do it?

Here is one rocket firer in his own words:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,531578,00.html

'"We are ready to die; that is the price of our freedom." He says that the Palestinians are left with no other choice but to fight the Israelis with weapons. "Either we resist, or they treat us like slaves." He has thought about who is hit by his rockets. "If we kill soldiers, then we are more than happy," he says. "If it hits a child, then naturally we are not happy."'

Even The Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades are at it.

In addition, AAMB announced that it fired mortars at Azata and two Grad rockets at Bir Saba earlier in the day, among the Palestinian resistance's 32 rockets aimed into the heart of the occupation. Palestinian resistance forces also noted that their missiles were reaching 45 kilometers in distance, hitting an Israeli main air force base, the furthest point yet hit by the rockets of the resistance.

http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=pflp-forces-resistance-engaged-fierce-battles-thro

Durutti was trying to claim that any faction that fired rockets into Israel was under the "direct command of Hamas" (sic). There is no love lost between Islamic Jihad and Hamas; so the idea that Hamas is pulling strings is fallacious.

 

[camouflage]

i think a really important thing that never gets mentioned is that the parts for the F-16s are made in england and france

israle can't build the weapons to arm itself as fast as they are using them, western countries could stop it tomorrow if we wanted to

it's all very well for us to shake our heads at yet another fucked up country thousands of miles away, but we never connect it like that war is keeping a bunch of people in jobs and we are involved in it just as much as anyone, if they did work out a two state solution that would probably mean a few hundred thousand workers unemployed over here,

personally i think that our media make a lot about it being a racial/relgious/system of government thing. at the end of the day it's just another war and another excuse to move money around, if Israel didn't have credit and places to buy weapons from they wouldn't act like they do and the same goes for whoever is firing the missiles out of gaza into israel. it has fuck all to do with anything except capitalism

Aye.

 

[frogwoman]

what mauvais and isitme said.

 

[tangentlama]

For a while recently you could watch the bombs falling on Gaza and hear the machine gun fire, 24 hours a day, live on the internet. You can't any more, I don't know why.

If I were there, with nowhere to escape to, I can have a good guess at what I would think. I imagine survival, especially long term, would seem like such pot luck that I'd become personally defeatist and cease to care whether I lived or died. That's a very dangerous mindset and it would almost certainly swing any anger against Hamas into apathy or support. Obvious really.

Of course I'm not there, and it's as tangled a political mess as can be, but I can't escape knowing how I would feel if I were, and so I'm not sure how I can condemn them.

Ehud Barak knows full well that this is the outcome of militarial action upon the Palestinians. I have a quote of him saying this 10 years ago.

This week I spoke with my students about the Gaza war, in the context of a class on national security. One student, who had expressed rather conservative, accepted opinions - that is opinions tending slightly to the right - succeeded in surprising me. Without any provocation on my part, he opened his heart and confessed: "If I were a young Palestinian," he said, "I'd fight the Jews fiercely, even by means of terror. Anyone who says anything different is telling you lies."

His remarks sounded familiar - I had already heard them before. Suddenly I remembered: About 10 years ago they were uttered by our defense minister, Ehud Barak. Haaretz journalist Gideon Levy had asked him then, as a candidate for prime minister, what he would do had he been born Palestinian and Barak replied frankly: "I would join a terror organization."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052057.html

It is as though Barak is trying to engender eternal despair in Palestinian populace and there is no doubt in my mind that the actions since end of 2008 will increase hatred against Israeli Jews and create another generation of hardliners. Things can only get worse with hardline militarial "solutions".

We need political and civilian solutions more than ever.

 

[obanite]

i think a really important thing that never gets mentioned is that the parts for the F-16s are made in england and france

israle can't build the weapons to arm itself as fast as they are using them, western countries could stop it tomorrow if we wanted to

it's all very well for us to shake our heads at yet another fucked up country thousands of miles away, but we never connect it like that war is keeping a bunch of people in jobs and we are involved in it just as much as anyone, if they did work out a two state solution that would probably mean a few hundred thousand workers unemployed over here,

personally i think that our media make a lot about it being a racial/relgious/system of government thing. at the end of the day it's just another war and another excuse to move money around, if Israel didn't have credit and places to buy weapons from they wouldn't act like they do and the same goes for whoever is firing the missiles out of gaza into israel. it has fuck all to do with anything except capitalism

I agree that capitalism has a fuckload to answer for, but I don't think it's the biggest reason this is going on. Aren't the rockets Hamas fires homemade anyway?

As a Jew I don't trust HAMAS, but as a rational human being I accept that they are the duly elected government of the people of Gaza, that they contributed immensely to the welfare of the citizens of the Gaza strip over the last 15 years, and that much as I don't trust them, that they and the Gazan people in general have done nothing that deserves the scale of military assault being used against their territory.

Agree with this. Except I'm not Jewish

 

[david dissadent]

a) I am for the maximum possible democratic rights for all people.

well done.

 

[durruti02]

My view. I don't support Hamas' politics. They are an Islamic-nationalist organisation. I want to see them defeated politically, but by something better from among Palestinians (I'm a revolutionary socialist, btw), not by Israel, which wants to impose a leadership on Gaza which is compliant to its aim for Gaza, which I believe is to make life unbearable there with the long term aim of gaining that territory.

The practical conclusions that follow from my view of Hamas is that I support their (and the other resistance groups) right to defend themselves against the IDF.

Why do I hold my view? a) I am for the maximum possible democratic rights for all people. Israel's denial of Palestinian rights is a denial of basic democractic rights (in the broadest sense) - the rights we take for granted, to live without fear of being driven from your home, to decide who represents you, the right to live without foreign oppression and occupation b) because I am a revoluionary socialist the ultimate aim for me is to see working people take on the classes that rule them, and while Israel does what it does to the Palestinians the class issue is heavily masked for them by the desire for national-democratic freedoms.

(NB for any left wing nit-pickers I don't hold to a stage-ist approach and I also for the Israeli w/c breaking from Zionism)

mostly agree with this .. spion do you also support PLO where they are the elected leadership? they have a differrent strategy mind

 

[quimcunx]

every political group uses "terrorism" to one extent or another. also depends on which side you're on, innit?

Very good point, DC. A good point to trot out Nelson Mandela was a terrorist then a freedom fighter. Furthermore although he eventually turned to violent struggle against Apartheid he was not vengeful in his presidency.

Udo Erasmus did a good post on this:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8602374&postcount=304

Cheers. An excellent post, I agree.

It's this, really. Regardless of whether there is violent resistance or not, Israel will continue the blockade and restrict freedom of movement and generally make life intolerable. Non-resistance is a non-option, and it is inevitable that some of it will be violent. Fatah and other secular parties in the PLO use suicide bombers; it's not a tactic associated exclusively with Hamas and the other Islamic groups.


Hamas won the election because Arafat and Fatah were perceived as corrupt and too willing to sell out Palestinian rights in return for political power. The attempted coup in Gaza, led by Mohammed Dahlan's Fatah faction was Washington backed, and Abbas is scarcely less in the pocket of the West.

Hamas isn't a simple monolithic entity, any more than Sinn Fein and the IRA. There are multiple political wings and multiple armed wings and they don't all necessarily agree. In general though, they don't aim to establish an Islamic state (Palestine is way too secular for that) and, whatever the propaganda, they would settle for a just two state solution. They just won't settle for the kind if imprisoned 'peace' that the PLO signed up to. And nor should they.

Israel broke the cease-fire. Gaza has been blockaded for months. What exactly do people want/expect of the elected Palestinian leadership? That they just roll over and take it? Then the media can leave and we can all forget about it until the next time it gets all exciting and newsworthy, instead of that steady one, two, three murders a day that never get reported.

I suspect you are right.

I think ''terrorism'' is what people who don't have armies employ against those who do, in conflict situations. Winning a war does not make you right, having an army does not mean you are more right than those who don't, not having a US or UN approved army does not mean you cannot resist. Would people feel less queazy about the Palestinian government if they were fighting Israel with a full scale UN approved army, rather than ''terrorism''?

Do the good people of urban think that the UN and western governments should engage with Hamas as the democratically elected political leaders of Palestine?

 

[purplex]

60 years on and the endless cycle of violence continues, such a needless tragic waste of life. The level of inhumanity shown from both sides is not a fitting epitaph for either side.

Both Israel and Palestine deserve better leaders, they have been failed by politicians whose political agendas are valued higher than human life.

Absolute unconditional peace is the only way forward. Peace is the only ideology worth fighting for.

Enter Barak Obama

 

[quimcunx]

Ehud Barak knows full well that this is the outcome of militarial action upon the Palestinians. I have a quote of him saying this 10 years ago.


It is as though Barak is trying to engender eternal despair in Palestinian populace and there is no doubt in my mind that the actions since end of 2008 will increase hatred against Israeli Jews and create another generation of hardliners. Things can only get worse with hardline militarial "solutions".

We need political and civilian solutions more than ever.

Depressing reading, but not surprising.

My view. I don't support Hamas' politics. They are an Islamic-nationalist organisation. I want to see them defeated politically, but by something better from among Palestinians (I'm a revolutionary socialist, btw), not by Israel, which wants to impose a leadership on Gaza which is compliant to its aim for Gaza, which I believe is to make life unbearable there with the long term aim of gaining that territory.

The practical conclusions that follow from my view of Hamas is that I support their (and the other resistance groups) right to defend themselves against the IDF.

What do you mean by Islamic-nationalist? Scuse my ignorance. And what is it about it that you object to? I presume that even if you object to Islamic-nationalism you would recognise the Palestinian voter's rights to vote for them all the same.

 

[quimcunx]

Here is a video I found quite interesting of Dr Sara Roy of Harvard.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ReH3D1lrB0Y

Here are her credentials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Roy

 

[quimcunx]

60 years on and the endless cycle of violence continues, such a needless tragic waste of life. The level of inhumanity shown from both sides is not a fitting epitaph for either side.

Both Israel and Palestine deserve better leaders, they have been failed by politicians whose political agendas are valued higher than human life.

Absolute unconditional peace is the only way forward. Peace is the only ideology worth fighting for.

Enter Barak Obama

But what do you think of Hamas? Do you then think that the UK, EU etc are right to refuse to speak to Hamas, or do you think they should?

 

[pollypatter]

But what do you think of Hamas? Do you then think that the UK, EU etc are right to refuse to speak to Hamas, or do you think they should?

Of course they fucking should. fuck sake.

 

[winjer]

Hamas held the key to reining in the other factions because they are force with political legitimacy and a strong military arm. Whether it was Hamas firing the rockets or other factions, they failed to stop them, and brought this on themselves.

Monthly Rocket Fire 2007-2008

I don't buy the argument that Israel unilaterally provoked this conflict because it seems implausible that they would go back just for fun to do a number on a region they had just evacuated.

They never properly left, they saved the village in order to destroy it.

 

[nino_savatte]

mostly agree with this .. spion do you also support PLO where they are the elected leadership? they have a differrent strategy mind

You realise that the PLO is not one single party but an umbrella organisation of Palestinian resistance parties that excludes Hamas?

 

[purplex]

But what do you think of Hamas? Do you then think that the UK, EU etc are right to refuse to speak to Hamas, or do you think they should?

Hamas have failed to protect their people.
Nothing will change if you dont engage with the parties involved, even if it is indirectly through a third party.
Peace has been achieved in Northern Ireland it can be achieved in Palestine

 

[TAE]

Hamas are really not a party I would ever vote for myself, but ...

Because they kept firing rockets into Israel. If I was yer average Gaza civilian, I'd be like 'wtf, they're not gonna ignore that dudes, you didn't mention drawing down Israeli massive & disproportionate retaliation in your fucking manifesto you cunts'

You are looking at it in isolation:
* Israel has been conducting military operations there for a long time, rockets or not, suicide bombers or not.
* Hamas are not just a military unit, they run schools and provide medical care, which your kids may have benefitted from.

Hamas were, for better or worse, elected by the population of Gaza AND West Bank, and the west should have accepted that.

 

[Spion]

mostly agree with this .. spion do you also support PLO where they are the elected leadership? they have a differrent strategy mind

Same. I'd support them against the IDF, but that's as far as it goes. Obv there are differences between PLO orgs (they range from Fatah to the 'Marxist' groups) and then there are diffs with the non-PLO Hamas, but they're all nationalists of one or other stripe so I don't support them politically.

 

[Spion]

What do you mean by Islamic-nationalist? Scuse my ignorance. And what is it about it that you object to? .

They have the nationalist goal of creating Palestine as a nation state. And the Palestine they want to create is an Islamic one.

I'm not in favour of building nations because I see nations as a capitalist phenomenon which bind all classes together, and as I said before I'm for the working classes re-making society in their interests

I presume that even if you object to Islamic-nationalism you would recognise the Palestinian voter's rights to vote for them all the same.

Yeah, of course. People have the right to vote Tory, for eg, here but I wouldn't advocate it

 

[mauvais]

They have the nationalist goal of creating Palestine as a nation state. And the Palestine they want to create is an Islamic one.

Is that true? There has been debate around the issue on here but I've not seen much evidence either way.

 

[winjer]

It depends on what you mean by Islamic, I suppose. What they say:

"Our society has always celebrated pluralism in keeping with the unique history and traditions of the Holy Land. In recognizing Judeo-Christian traditions, Muslims nobly vie for and have the greatest incentive and stake in preserving the Holy Land for all three Abrahamic faiths. In addition, fair governance demands that the Palestinian nation be represented in a pluralistic environment.

A new breed of Islamic leadership is ready to put into practice faith-based principles in a setting of tolerance and unity. In that vein, Hamas has pledged transparency in government. Honest leadership will result from the accountability of its public servants. Hamas has elected 15 female legislators poised to play a significant role in public life. The movement has forged genuine and lasting relationships with Christian candidates."

What Hamas Is Seeking
By Mousa Abu Marzook
Tuesday, January 31, 2006
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/AR2006013001209.html

 

[Spion]

Is that true? There has been debate around the issue on here but I've not seen much evidence either way.

You've picked up on a point I thought was debateable. I think that the Islamic goal is in Hamas' general principles, but that in practice and in pragmatic day to day terms there are different views about just how Islamic it and its goals should be. Need to find more out to really answer that one tho

 

[JimW]

Of course they should be negotiated with, but as bourgeois nationalists they've got a shite track record with the labour movement, seizing PGFTU headquarters, disputes with various other worker's reps etc. The religious underpinnings also inform their strategy and make the leadership more cavalier with ordinary lives imo. In the swirl of Israeli propaganda and factional in-fighting within Gaza that's just a sense I get and who knows what'll come to light later, but I save my support, critical or otherwise, for working class organisations, particularly given what can be done from a distance is as much about your politics here as what's happening there.

 

[durruti02]

Same. I'd support them against the IDF, but that's as far as it goes. Obv there are differences between PLO orgs (they range from Fatah to the 'Marxist' groups) and then there are diffs with the non-PLO Hamas, but they're all nationalists of one or other stripe so I don't support them politically.

fair play

 

[durruti02]

Of course they should be negotiated with, but as bourgeois nationalists they've got a shite track record with the labour movement, seizing PGFTU headquarters, disputes with various other worker's reps etc. The religious underpinnings also inform their strategy and make the leadership more cavalier with ordinary lives imo. In the swirl of Israeli propaganda and factional in-fighting within Gaza that's just a sense I get and who knows what'll come to light later, but I save my support, critical or otherwise, for working class organisations, particularly given what can be done from a distance is as much about your politics here as what's happening there.

absolutely agree with this

 

[CyberRose]

It was thinking about starting a new thread with the title "What does Hamas achieve by firing missiles at Israel" but I think I'll collect my thoughts here instead as there are already tons of threads on this conflict and starting a new thread that might say something "controversial" just exposes me to accusations of cuntishness!

Anyway, I don't like Hamas, never have, never will. I don't like any Islamist group or any religious extremists whatsoever (and of course, that includes the Jewish Settlers in the West Bank who, imo, are THE major impediment to peace). Anyway, whatever I think of Hamas is certainly no justification to do what Israel did to Gaza. However, I don't think Israel would have attacked Gaza had Hamas not fired any missiles into Israel. If I were living in Gaza, and I looked up and saw Hamas missiles firing into Israel I'd think to myself "yea, cheers lads." It begs the question: What does Hamas achieve by firing missiles into Israel?

The aim of any Palestinian political group should be ending the occupation of the West Bank (including the removal of the Settlements) and ending the siege of Gaza (ie creating a viable Palestinian state). Perhaps there was a time during the 60s, 70s and maybe even the 80s where a military solution from the Palestinian (and Arab) side might have achieved such an end but now? No way. The Arab countries deserted the Palestinians long ago and treat them as second class citizens wherever they settle. Israel has the backing of America and is more than capable of looking after itself on its own. The Palestinians will not achieve a military victory over Israel, and certainly not with the pathetic rocket attacks.

The rockets' only purpose seems to be to give Israel an excuse to attack Gaza. Is that what Hamas wanted? Everyone (including the media) seem pretty convinced that the Israeli leadership attacked Gaza to show their strength before the upcoming elections, did Hamas do exactly the same? Maybe the people of Gaza became so upset about their situation thanks to the blockade that they were ready to give up their support for Hamas in exchange for an end to the siege? Giving Israel an excuse to do what they did to Gaza could boost support for Hamas (certainly around the world thousands have marched in support of Hamas).

Is this whole conflict just designed by the participants to boost their respective political support?

 

[winjer]

However, I don't think Israel would have attacked Gaza had Hamas not fired any missiles into Israel.

That's exactly what they did.

http://israels60thbirthday.com/2009...at-cnn-confirms-israel-broke-ceasefire-first/

Monthly rocket hits

"The report recalls that Hamas "tried to enforce the terms of the arrangement" on other Palestinian groups, taking "a number of steps against networks which violated the arrangement," including short-term detention and confiscating their weapons. It even found that Hamas had sought support in Gazan public opinion for its policy of maintaining the cease-fire."

Maybe the people of Gaza became so upset about their situation thanks to the blockade that they were ready to give up their support for Hamas in exchange for an end to the siege?

"The interest of Hamas in a ceasefire agreement that would actually open the border crossings was acknowledged at a Dec. 21 Israeli cabinet meeting -- five days before the beginning of the Israeli military offensive -- by Yuval Diskin, the head of Israel's internal security agency, Shin Bet. "Make no mistake, Hamas is interested in maintaining the truce," Diskin was quoted by Y-net News agency as saying."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/09/israel-rejected-hamas-cea_n_156639.html

certainly around the world thousands have marched in support of Hamas

Where? Who has marched in support of some fantasy 'Hamastan' rather than Gaza?