What did anyone expect

[nino_savatte]

He's asking for specific verifiable information regarding a specific claim. Perhaps an amnesty international investigation with documented witness statements.

He knows that there were many cases of human rights violations during the war and that many, if not all of them, were covered up. Only My Lai came to light and only after a great deal of pressure.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think it boils down to a very simple: "Never ask troops to act like police".

I'd go for the slightly more complex "Never ask troops to act like police unless you have specifically re-trained them to do so to the exclusion of any other duties".

 

[denniseagle]

He knows that there were many cases of human rights violations during the war and that many, if not all of them, were covered up. Only My Lai came to light and only after a great deal of pressure.

Just out of interest it would be helpful if you could post evidence of the incident you mentioned.
It sounds somewhat similar to what the 'Hun' did to the plucky Belgians when they invaded in 1914.........................

 

[TAE]

I'd go for the slightly more complex "Never ask troops to act like police unless you have specifically re-trained them to do so to the exclusion of any other duties".

That's possible ?!

The only people I could possibly imagine coming even close to that would be the military police, but even then ... there is their motivation to join the army in the first place, their attitude towards life, etc, as opposed to those who choose to join the cops instead, and then there's the training which I think is very effective and hence difficult to reverse.

I would have thought that such a re-training would have to be a permanent thing, after they've left the military. I just can't imagine the policing and fighting mind-sets being compatible.

 

[TAE]

He knows that there were many cases of human rights violations during the war and that many, if not all of them, were covered up. Only My Lai came to light and only after a great deal of pressure.

Yes, but he's asking about a very specific allegation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's possible ?!

The only people I could possibly imagine coming even close to that would be the military police, but even then ... there is their motivation to join the army in the first place, their attitude towards life, etc, as opposed to those who choose to join the cops instead, and then there's the training which I think is very effective and hence difficult to reverse.

I would have thought that such a re-training would have to be a permanent thing, after they've left the military. I just can't imagine the policing and fighting mind-sets being compatible.

In effect you can "program" and "deprogram" troops at will with the correct training.

The problems come when you try to "re-program" troops without wiping the original program first. As it is, most armies (except the largest ones) have experience in training their troops to perform disaprate roles, so it isn't beyond comprehension that you could have, say, a policing battalion.

 

[TAE]

In effect you can "program" and "deprogram" troops at will with the correct training.

Ok, as you were in the army I'll take your word for it.

So it works a bit like 1984 ? "We have always respected the lives of others".

 

[nino_savatte]

Just out of interest it would be helpful if you could post evidence of the incident you mentioned.
It sounds somewhat similar to what the 'Hun' did to the plucky Belgians when they invaded in 1914.........................

Innit?

 

[likesfish]

you can train troops to take part in "peace support Operations"
not very popular in US circles as its blunts there teeth. problem is theres nobody around that makes a viable enemy for a full on US armored assault possibly a drive to invade china (but then they'd run out of ipods)
iran north korea or even russia would'nt keep a conventional fight going for much over a week.
I

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ok, as you were in the army I'll take your word for it.

So it works a bit like 1984 ? "We have always respected the lives of others".

Not quite, it's more about training out certain reactions and replacing them with others.

I suppose a "reasonable" example is the British army in N.I. It was (eventually) found that sending troops there who'd just been, say, in West Germany doing loads of gung-ho "kill the russki" exercises weren't best placed to be used as a supplement to the RUC in N.I. without at least blunting the "shoot first, ask questions later" instinct.
Not that such training is 100% successful, but it does by and large work, and the "Rules of Engagement" that (non-lawbreaking) troops followed there were designed to assist that training (no round in chamber. Permission required to laod and to discharge firearm).

 

[denniseagle]

Innit?

Well, its not much to ask is it?

Could you please furnish verifiable details of the incident where unborn children were cut out of the wombs of Vietnamese so the US Army could increase its' body count.

 

[ZAMB]

I have never been one to deny the complicity of US soldiers in war crimes. In this war or in wars past.

Strangely enough, when the Japanese did it to UK/US troops in WW2 they were tried for war crimes. It sends a strange message - that torture is something that is OK for us or our allies, but totally henious when our enemies do it.

As I have said before, I am the child of a torture survivor from that war. It not only destroys the victim, it affects their families in horrible ways in the years that follow. I know from personal experience of what it did to my father.

Rach is talking shit, as usual. He goes on about the holocaust, yet shows no empathy for anyone else in torture or death camps.

Or does that famous 'Never again' after WW2 apply only to the Jews in his mind.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I'd go for the slightly more complex "Never ask troops to act like police unless you have specifically re-trained them to do so to the exclusion of any other duties".

I would point out that NI was essentially a policing duty, carried out tolerably well by the army.

 

[denniseagle]

Strangely enough, when the Japanese did it to UK/US troops in WW2 they were tried for war crimes. It sends a strange message - that torture is something that is OK for us or our allies, but totally henious when our enemies do it.

As I have said before, I am the child of a torture survivor from that war. It not only destroys the victim, it affects their families in horrible ways in the years that follow. I know from personal experience of what it did to my father.

Rach is talking shit, as usual. He goes on about the holocaust, yet shows no empathy for anyone else in torture or death camps.

Or does that famous 'Never again' after WW2 apply only to the Jews in his mind.

Try reading 'The Knights of Bushido'. by Lord Russell of Liverpool

It will open your eyes as to why certain Japanese were tried for war crimes.

Once you have read the book please post details of similar actions undertaken by UK/US troops .

 

[ZAMB]

Try reading 'The Knights of Bushido'. by Lord Russell of Liverpool

It will open your eyes as to why certain Japanese were tried for war crimes.

Once you have read the book please post details of similar actions undertaken by UK/US troops .

Torture is a war crime - regardless of who does it or where. I don't need to read your book to know that. I have seen its horrendous effects up close. It should be universally condemned by every person who claims to know right from wrong.

 

[dylanredefined]

Watching 24 is supposed to be one of the reasons soldiers think torture is ok in extremis .Sticking sand bags on detainees heads and plasticuffing their hands behinds their backs is also considered unacepptable .
Though that was how we were always taught to deal with prisoners .Its not pleaseant but wouldn't say it was torture
Our tours are 6 months the US forces spend 12 to 18 months which is probably too long espically for those in combat.

 

[Meltingpot]

The famous question: If you knew that there was a terrorist about to detnonate a nuclear device that would kill a good million people and torture is the only method of finding him and preventing it, would you resort to torture?

In practice, what are the odds on there being a nuclear device set to go off in the immediate future, and your having in custody the person responsible for planting it, without your knowing where it is? Pretty small I'd say.

 

[TAE]

rachamim18, what if you only have that guy's ten year old son and he knows where his dad is but won't tell ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I would point out that NI was essentially a policing duty, carried out tolerably well by the army.

That depends entirely on how you look at the issue, IMHO.

What "we" (i.e. the P.B.I., the ancilliary logistics and medical services etc) did was a crude form of "policing" in the broadest sense of the word. We gave a spine to the RUC and allowed them to carry on their Protestantism-centric "business as usual" for an extra 3 and a half decades. We managed to avoid killing too many innocents in spite of our training, and because our RoE was so restrictive (imho).

Other elements of the army went far beyond "policing" into partisanism, provocation, and participation in conspiracies to murder. Not, imho, something to be proud of.

 

[ViolentPanda]

rachamim18, what if you only have that guy's ten year old son and he knows where his dad is but won't tell ?

Given that he claims he'd disown his children in a flash if they renounced Zionism and/or refused to participate in the "defence" of Israel, I'd be very worried for the safety of the 10 year old boy.

 

[nino_savatte]

Just out of interest it would be helpful if you could post evidence of the incident you mentioned.
It sounds somewhat similar to what the 'Hun' did to the plucky Belgians when they invaded in 1914.........................

What evidence for which incident? My Lai? There's already plenty of stuff on that on the Net.

 

[Kaka Tim]

.

Once you have read the book please post details of similar actions undertaken by UK/US troops .

Well what we know went on at Abu Ghraib includes people being tourtered to death as part a systematic programme deisgned and run by military intieligence.

I cant see any difference between that and the activities of the gestapo or katempi in WW2 other than,perhaps, one of scale.

Additionaly the UK ran a tourture centre in london up until 1948 - http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,,1640942,00.html

 

[ViolentPanda]

Torture is a war crime - regardless of who does it or where. I don't need to read your book to know that. I have seen its horrendous effects up close. It should be universally condemned by every person who claims to know right from wrong.

It's a book well worth reading nonetheless. I've recommended it to a few folks myself.

I agree though that torture can never be the right course of action, especially in terms of soliciting intelligence.

 

[denniseagle]

What evidence for which incident? My Lai? There's already plenty of stuff on that on the Net.

Read my post #41 Specific question with no reference to My Lai.

 

[denniseagle]

Torture is a war crime - regardless of who does it or where. I don't need to read your book to know that. I have seen its horrendous effects up close. It should be universally condemned by every person who claims to know right from wrong.

Try READING the book before making statements about UK and US troops and the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army.

Once you have done so please furnish verifiable incidents where UK and US troops behaved and committed the same crimes as those of the Imperial Japanese Army



There are too many on these boards who throw out statements attempting to link supposed actions of UK and US troops to those of others, but when questioned about specifics avoid answering

 

[denniseagle]

Well what we know went on at Abu Ghraib includes people being tourtered to death as part a systematic programme deisgned and run by military intieligence.

I cant see any difference between that and the activities of the gestapo or katempi in WW2 other than,perhaps, one of scale.

Additionaly the UK ran a tourture centre in london up until 1948 - http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,,1640942,00.html

KEMPEI TAI you mean??

No difference other than one of scale??

Have you read the book?

If so, do you seriously want to state that UK and US troops are the same ?

The actions undertaken by the Kempei Tai were not 'designed and run' from Tokyo, they were the accepted behaviour of a nation of people schooled in the way of Bushido.

The Kempei Tai didn't use Indian prisoners of war as live targets on a rifle range because it was part of a 'programme' they did it because they saw no thing wrong in their actions.

What of the 'ordinary' Japanese soldier who committed war crimes, such as those in Nanking for example.
Was that part of the 'programme' as well??

 

[ZAMB]

Try READING the book before making statements about UK and US troops and the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army.

Once you have done so please furnish verifiable incidents where UK and US troops behaved and committed the same crimes as those of the Imperial Japanese Army



There are too many on these boards who throw out statements attempting to link supposed actions of UK and US troops to those of others, but when questioned about specifics avoid answering

Gosh, you've read some book and now you're an expert. I don't need you to tell me what to read - I studied history at university, and, besides, I grew up with someone who [just about managed] to live through the actual experience. Someone would have to be either extremely arrogant or exremely stupid to suggest, as you have, that reading one book makes the difference about being qualified to comment on any particular issue.

As for the actions of the US/UK there are plenty of verifyable cases of torture and death in the 'war on terror'. Read the Amnesty reports for a start. As well as this, there is the out-sourcing of torture to other regimes http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/02/14/050214fa_fact6
Also consider the Padilla case - where an american citizen has been tortured in the US to the point where he can no longer assist in his own defence as he is so metally damaged.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/greenwald1.html

 

[nino_savatte]

Read my post #41 Specific question with no reference to My Lai.

You are either splitting hairs for the sake of it or you're being deliberately and wilfully ignorant. Either way, it's boring.

 

[nino_savatte]

There are too many on these boards who throw out statements attempting to link supposed actions of UK and US troops to those of others, but when questioned about specifics avoid answering

So you think that because the US and UK are 'civilised' nations that torture and human rights abuses never take place?

I'd like to see some evidence please.

 

[denniseagle]

You are either splitting hairs for the sake of it or you're being deliberately and wilfully ignorant. Either way, it's boring.

And you are avoiding answering the question.