What can we learn from the social breakdown in New Orleans?

[Bigdavalad]

They also get used as HQ ships, and very likely some are doing that now in Iraq.

Unlikely now mate, the US is very established in Baghdad, plus they have a large base in Qatar and facilities in Saudi and probably Kuwait. They don't need ships to use as headquarters there anymore. In the first stages of an amphibious invasion of somewhere, the assault ships would provide a HQ until the fighting moved inland and the Brigade/Divisional HQ could move ashore.

For this scenario though, as far as I can tell you could hardly imagine anything more useful. They're mainly for invading places though I think.

They are designed for amphibious assaults, but they would be absolutely spot on for New Orleans.

 

[Bigdavalad]

It's not even in issue that the army, marines etc have the capacity to bring rapid relief; there's no need to argue over what type of ship should be sent.

The problem is, when was the 'go' order given. Here, it was given too late.

It's not just an issue of sending some ships, it's sending the right ships. US carriers only have a few helicopters, being mostly equipped with F/A-18 and F-14 fast jets, EA-6B Electronic Warfare aircraft and P-3 Airborne Early Warning aircraft. On the other hand, the assault ships are equipped mostly with Black Hawk and Sea Stallion helicopters, because their primary role is to move US Marines from the US to a war zone and then to land them. Fast jets have absolutely no use over New Orleans, helicopters could save thousands of lives.

 

[detective-boy]

Dude, it's possible to disagree with you, and not need treatment. You really do sound like a cop.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I have a problem with you attempting to read discrimination into something I said ... Your determination to see discrimination where none exists is what I suggest needs treatment.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> Fast jets have absolutely no use over New Orleans

Depends how seriously they take looting and the "security situation"

ps thanks for the info above.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I have a problem with you attempting to read discrimination into something I said ... Your determination to see discrimination where none exists is what I suggest needs treatment.

Here are the relevant posts. Please point out the spot where I bring up race or racism:


04-09-2005, 03:58 AM
detective-boy
In the murder triangle.. Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,072

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Canuck2
Let's play a game: 48 hours from now, 80% of London will be under water...


Is New Orleans the capital city then? Has it a population of 7.46m?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by detective-boy : 04-09-2005 at 03:58 AM. Reason: Grammar

.........................................................................
#85 04-09-2005, 04:15 AM
detective-boy
In the murder triangle.. Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,072

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Canuck2
Point is that a system designed for commuter use isn't usually up to the task of a rapid mass evacuation to some spot outside the metropolitan area.


They are if there is a plan for their deployment for that use. And there is. There is a plan to evacuate the entire central London area which is periodically reviewed and, in part, practised and tested. It wouldn't be perfect ... but it would be achievable.

And no ... there is no chapter which says leave those poor people in Feltham / Brent / Tower Hamlets ... Quite the contrary, the plan anticipates that the government organised transport will be disproportionately required by those populations as they do not have their own means of transport.

detective-boy
View Public Profile
Send a private message to detective-boy
Find all posts by detective-boy
Add detective-boy to Your Buddy List

.....................................................
#90 04-09-2005, 08:40 PM
Johnny Canuck2
Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 22,968

Quote:
Originally Posted by detective-boy
But the good ole US of A is bigger and more populus. Proportionately it is like a city a bit smaller than Cardiff being inundated like New Orleans and an area extending about 40km east (Swansea) and west (Bristol) and 80km north (Shhrewsbury) being damaged to similar extent to the the rest of the affected area of the US (i.e. smaller towns near Cardiff devastated, with damage decreasing as the distance rises).

Would like to think we could have managed a bit better, mate.

Even without the opportunity to pre-plan on the basis that (a) much of New Orleans is below sea level and (b) the odd hurricane has been known in the area previously.

Just face it. The US and it's people really are not as all-seeing, all- knowing, faultless and invincible as some of their leaders and people seem to think.

Stats. assumed:

Population: USA 293m UK 60m New Orleans 240k Cardiff 315k
Area (sqkm): USA 9.63m UK 0.25m Damaged area US 0.23m



Frankly, I don't see how your country could handle it worse. I was just rankled by the smugness of the poster who originally raised the point.

IMO, it's one thing to criticize those who appear to be responsible for this disaster; it's another to stand on the sidelines crowing about your own superiority, while people are still dying in the water.
...........................................................
#91 04-09-2005, 08:41 PM
Johnny Canuck2
Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 22,968

Quote:
Originally Posted by detective-boy
Is New Orleans the capital city then? Has it a population of 7.46m?



If it's not a capital city, does it become ok to allow the poorer citizens to die?

I assume that if you allow a city to grow to 7.6 million, then you have mustered the resources to take care of those 7.6 million in times of emergency.
..................................................................
#92 04-09-2005, 08:43 PM
Johnny Canuck2
Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 22,968

Quote:
Originally Posted by detective-boy
They are if there is a plan for their deployment for that use. And there is. There is a plan to evacuate the entire central London area which is periodically reviewed and, in part, practised and tested. It wouldn't be perfect ... but it would be achievable.

And no ... there is no chapter which says leave those poor people in Feltham / Brent / Tower Hamlets ... Quite the contrary, the plan anticipates that the government organised transport will be disproportionately required by those populations as they do not have their own means of transport.



Good for your country. Seems NO had no such plan.


......................................................


With respect, it seems you implied some sort of racial-based criticism, where patently none exists.

Who should get the treatment then?

 

[rocketman]

It's not just an issue of sending some ships

No. It's an issue in which help arrived far too late for many, many people. The rest is academic.

 

[detective-boy]

Please point out the spot where I bring up race or racism:

You're at it again. Attributing things to me that I never said. I never mention race or racism as what you were bringing up. I mentioned discrimination. And discrimination is more than just race

You said:

Post #91 04-09-2005, 08:41 PM
Johnny Canuck2
Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 22,968

Originally Posted by detective-boy
Is New Orleans the capital city then? Has it a population of 7.46m?

If it's not a capital city, does it become ok to allow the poorer citizens to die?

That implied that I was saying that if it was not a capital city it would be full of poor people unlike the capital which would be full of rich people (not sure exactly which world you live in ).

That is what I challenged (Posts #116 and #123) - using the word "discrimination". No mention of race.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You're at it again. Attributing things to me that I never said. I never mention race or racism as what you were bringing up. I mentioned discrimination. And discrimination is more than just race

You said:



That implied that I was saying that if it was not a capital city it would be full of poor people unlike the capital which would be full of rich people (not sure exactly which world you live in ).

That is what I challenged (Posts #116 and #123) - using the word "discrimination". No mention of race.

Were you one of those police spokesmen who went on tv to explain difficult situations without actually saying anything?

Your explanation has no meaning.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

BTW, aren't you the guy who said this:

Never liked America and the American psyche much anyway - all this has done is confirm my opinions. Let's face it, as a nation you are arrogant, ignorant, self-centred, bullying, egotistical and about three hundred other negative descriptors.



So why are you suddenly so nonplussed when you think you've been accused of discrimination or bias?

You're obviously biased, and you obviously discriminate.

 

[Bigdavalad]

No. It's an issue in which help arrived far too late for many, many people. The rest is academic.

Obviously the help arrived late, for whatever reason. The rest isn't really academic though - if the US sent 300,000 troops to help out, but they were all riding M1 tanks and Bradley IFVs, they'd be no use to anyone. On the other hand, just 3,000 troops all driving supply trucks loaded with food, water, tentage etc would be a big big help.

Depends how seriously they take looting and the "security situation"

ps thanks for the info above.

- very true, I didn't think of that.

 

[detective-boy]

Your explanation has no meaning.

Just because you are too ignorant to see it does not mean there is no meaning there.

BTW, aren't you the guy who said this:

Never liked America and the American psyche much anyway - all this has done is confirm my opinions. Let's face it, as a nation you are arrogant, ignorant, self-centred, bullying, egotistical and about three hundred other negative descriptors.

So why are you suddenly so nonplussed when you think you've been accused of discrimination or bias?

You're obviously biased, and you obviously discriminate.

I may not choose to go on holiday to America. I may not choose to socialise with Americans. I may not seek to immerse myself in exported American culture. But the fact someone is American makes absolutely no difference to how I would deal with them in any situation where they needed / deserved help or assistance or in the provision of any goods or services.

Some of us are capable of more sophisticated thought processes.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

That's the exact thing (ours is called HMS Ocean and the Royal Marines go and play on her a lot) - as you say - loads of helicopters, loads of deck space to keep the people on until they could be taken somewhere else and enough logistics & medical backup to look after a whole brigade (which is roughly 3000-4000 soldiers), would make far more sense than an aircraft carrier full of F/A-18s, F-14s and EA-6Bs and only a few helicopters (some of which will only be smaller anti-submarine types rather than the large transport types needed).

No idea what the Yanks have done with all of theirs though, wouldn't have though they would still be in Iraq now

There's one of these offshore right now. USS Bataan.

It's been there offshore the whole time it seems, having ridden out the hurricane, but the feds haven't really made much use of it so far. Like a lot of the people who would like to be helping, they're apparently on the sidelines waiting for FEMA to let them do so.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Someone else who thinks this is a systemic failure of capitalism

We simply cannot have both an ecological society, much less a socially just and free society, and also have capitalism. The same capitalist system that creates social domination and exploitation creates global ecological crisis. This crisis is an ongoing, but worsening condition of intensified environmental and climatic disasters, and it disproportionately affects those already marginalized within the dog-eat-dog market economy. As climatologists predict a furiously turbulent hurricane season this year and in years to come, amplified by rapid global warming, the question of who will be most affected must be stressed with the utmost urgency. Hurricane Katrina should be taken as an indication that either we supplant capitalism with a more humane and rational society or we degenerate into uncontrollable ecological collapse and social barbarism.

source

 

[rocketman]

I may not choose to go on holiday to America. I may not choose to socialise with Americans. I may not seek to immerse myself in exported American culture. But the fact someone is American makes absolutely no difference to how I would deal with them in any situation where they needed / deserved help or assistance or in the provision of any goods or services.

I'm with you there DB.
I made a decision a couple of years ago that I won't visit America until Bush is out of power and the country ceases to be such a monster. It's damaging to what I do for a living, but I felt I had no choice.
It's not the Americans, or even the politicians. It's their current political leadership I object to. I think they have damaged America's democratic credibility, marched the world into an unwinnable war, continue to deny all the environmental things that matter, and the failure in New Orleans is yet another reason not to countenance the place tacitly by being there.
I remain hopeful that freedom will march in the US once again, but the freedom marching there now is dualistic - one for the rich, one for the poor.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Just because you are too ignorant to see it does not mean there is no meaning there.


I may not choose to go on holiday to America. I may not choose to socialise with Americans. I may not seek to immerse myself in exported American culture. But the fact someone is American makes absolutely no difference to how I would deal with them in any situation where they needed / deserved help or assistance or in the provision of any goods or services.

Some of us are capable of more sophisticated thought processes.

We were talking about whether or not you were biased.

"Never liked America and the American psyche much anyway - all this has done is confirm my opinions. Let's face it, as a nation you are arrogant, ignorant, self-centred, bullying, egotistical and about three hundred other negative descriptors."

 

[hipipol]

Talking of Bias

Seems odd really that the media have all rushed to NO in order to condemn the Govt for doing fuck all, to look on with a sort of smug whiteness at all these black people who didn't have enough sense to get out and have all gone mad looting etc when in fact they could have probably found just as many white folks just down the coast doing pretty much the same, except that they might actully have had to rough it to get to remoter places that are only now getting help - ie making the Govt look even more of a fuck up - but then thats not the story
The riot act was written in the UK because the ruling class had an abnormal fear of "The Mob" - I suspect a new law may yet get passed in the US allowing the cops to shoot dead anyone they think might be trouble in any future natural disaster, instead of having to wait for for the State Governor to go on TV telling everyone that a bunch of trigger happy guys used to killing Ay-rabs were on there way. Yep, they sure know how to shoot Darkies, we trained em in Ay-raq, now lets get em home to sort our uppity types out.
Which was basically what she said, their just back from Iraq and they know how to kill people - I think she has a much deeper understanding of whats going on in Iraq than she will let herself admit. Whats more, she knew her audience was equally aware so the threat might work.
Just random thoughts.........