What can we learn from the social breakdown in New Orleans?

[Johnny Canuck3]

Is New Orleans the capital city then? Has it a population of 7.46m?

If it's not a capital city, does it become ok to allow the poorer citizens to die?

I assume that if you allow a city to grow to 7.6 million, then you have mustered the resources to take care of those 7.6 million in times of emergency.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They are if there is a plan for their deployment for that use. And there is. There is a plan to evacuate the entire central London area which is periodically reviewed and, in part, practised and tested. It wouldn't be perfect ... but it would be achievable.

And no ... there is no chapter which says leave those poor people in Feltham / Brent / Tower Hamlets ... Quite the contrary, the plan anticipates that the government organised transport will be disproportionately required by those populations as they do not have their own means of transport.

Good for your country. Seems NO had no such plan.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I'm sure that if something happened to London exactly the way it did to New Orleans the scenes inside Wembley Stadium would have made the Superdome look like Shangri-La - but because there's less reliance on private cars in this country and more reliance on public transport, everybody who wanted to get out would have been able to get out when the evacuation order came.

I reckon there must have been enough empty seats in cars leaving New Orleans to evacuate the entire population.

I saw a report today (Independent) which said that 27% of poeple in New Orleans dont have cars.

 

[kyser_soze]

From what I've seen, there was chaos there, and London basically ground to a halt for at least a day or more.

That is natural in the face of an unforeseen occurrence, no matter how much planning you've done.

The tube was grounded for about 36 hours (but given you'd had bombs going off in trains in the tubes this wasn't surprising)

Overland trains services out of London were restored by 4pm that day, and the only reason buses and other traffic weren't running in central London was related to the police shtting Zone 1 down for obvious security reasons. the vast bulk of the city was running effectively within 48 hours. So no, it didn't 'grind to a halt' - people were by and large able to get into work without too much disruoption (given that 3 tube lines had blown up trains on them) with 2 hours...much sooner in most cases.

They also are surrounded by deep water, but there's no nearby place to bring in helicopters.

These would be helicopters that rescue people from the sea wouldn't they? That's the main reason they are used for S&R is that they don't need to land anywhere.

Had a couple of chats with various mates from around the EU about this over the weekend and the general feeling all round was that things wouldn't get as bad as NO if it happened in a European country. Not just the rich people leaving bit but that the national governments would take this long to start reacting.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The tube was grounded for about 36 hours (but given you'd had bombs going off in trains in the tubes this wasn't surprising)

Overland trains services out of London were restored by 4pm that day, and the only reason buses and other traffic weren't running in central London was related to the police shtting Zone 1 down for obvious security reasons. the vast bulk of the city was running effectively within 48 hours. So no, it didn't 'grind to a halt' - people were by and large able to get into work without too much disruoption (given that 3 tube lines had blown up trains on them) with 2 hours...much sooner in most cases.



These would be helicopters that rescue people from the sea wouldn't they? That's the main reason they are used for S&R is that they don't need to land anywhere.

Had a couple of chats with various mates from around the EU about this over the weekend and the general feeling all round was that things wouldn't get as bad as NO if it happened in a European country. Not just the rich people leaving bit but that the national governments would take this long to start reacting.

We probably would have been better prepared for it too...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Gary Younge has something to say about the class/race issue of the response to Katrina:

'Stuff happens," said the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, when called to respond to the looting taking place in Baghdad after the American invasion. "But in terms of what's going on in that country, it is a fundamental misunderstanding to see those images over and over and over again of some boy walking out with a vase and say, 'Oh, my goodness, you didn't have a plan' ... It's untidy, and freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things. They're also free to live their lives and do wonderful things, and that's what's going to happen here."

Article continues
The official response to the looting in New Orleans last week was, however, quite different. The images were not of "newly liberated Iraqis" making away with precious artefacts, but desperate African-Americans in a devastated urban area, most of whom are making off with nappies, bottled water and food.

So these are not scenes of freedom at work but anarchy to be suppressed. "These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," said the Democrat governor of Louisiana, Kathleen Blanco. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and I expect they will."

Full article

 

[jæd]

Even without the opportunity to pre-plan on the basis that (a) much of New Orleans is below sea level and (b) the odd hurricane has been known in the area previously.

And much of London is drained out marshes and site below sea-level Its why we invested in a barrier to protect us.

 

[jæd]

I'm sure that if something happened to London exactly the way it did to New Orleans the scenes inside Wembley Stadium would have made the Superdome look like Shangri-La - but because there's less reliance on private cars in this country and more reliance on public transport, everybody who wanted to get out would have been able to get out when the evacuation order came.

It would be pointless to go to Wembley Stadium. The first place I'd try to get to is Hamstead Heath. You see across most of London from there. Its called "a hill".

 

[Kid_Eternity]

It would be pointless to go to Wembley Stadium. The first place I'd try to get to is Hamstead Heath. You see across most of London from there. Its called "a hill".

Yep, I said the same to someone on another N.O. thread. I live about 15 minutes walk from the heath so i'd just wade/swim up there and set up a camp. You have so much space and alot of places to use as a toilet. I've built biverwacks up there as a kid so know it's good for shelter etc.

 

[kyser_soze]

I live on top of a hill (nearly) and live next to a park with hills looking over the London basin...

 

[jæd]

Have you ever been anywhere when the fire alarm went off for real?

We used to have fire drills in school; all schools do.

Then one day, a couple of kids pulled it. The teachers, everyone, thought it was real. There was a stampede for the door, with the teachers in the front of the pack.

Sometimes even planning can go awry.

We had a fire alert last week. Everyone filed out through the emergency exits as planned with no panic, etc... It turned out to be a firealarm button hit by someone moving a table.

Even during the 7/7 bombs I never saw anyone panic. (In fact the most paniced seem were American tourists) The majority reaction by Londoners was "Fucking suicide bombers. They've made me late for xxx, if I see one I'll give him a slap"

 

[trashpony]

Overland trains services out of London were restored by 4pm that day

Am being a bit of a pedant but the Thameslink was actually up and running by 2pm - it took me home

As you were.

 

[circelily]

The American administration should be tried by the International Court for genocide by willful negligence and mismanagement (and refusal it meet its social responsibility). Katrina was a natural disaster. What happened (or more to the point, didn't happen) in NOLA afterwards is a humanitarian and social crime. It was estimated 200,000 of 500,00 got left behind. Approx 50,000 have (eventually) been evacuated (those able-bodied enough to walk to one of the convention centre and survive for 5 days! the filth, thirst, starvation and few militia who were "preserving law and order" rather than evacuating and aiding. Do the Maths.

Their alleged national emergency agency FEMA actively prevented all attempts by others including the Red Cross and other states military forces to help.

Some links saying it best:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/nihilistic_kid/644690.html

http://www.livejournal.com/users/thawrecka/270511.html?mode=reply

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/002471.html

in fact the whole War and Piece site is very illuminating.

The comments threads in this blog are also very interesting: http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/

I'm wrung out.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Tulane hospital was evacuated today. They did it by knocking a hole in a wall, giving access to a parking structure. The roof of that was cleared, allowing a landing site for helicopters. Everyone in the hospital was taken out by air.

There was too much water to allow the people to leave or enter by the usual means.

Mercy, and another hospital I can't recall the name of, haven't yet been evacuated. They also are surrounded by deep water, but there's no nearby place to bring in helicopters.

What's your suggestion?

we have these things called boats here in the uk funnly enough i think you even have them in canada where you are despite the fact you are single handley the most pro american canadian i have ever had the misfortune to come accross

 

[kyser_soze]

Yeah, and this helicopter nonsense...the Blackhawk's range is 1150 nautical miles...and I'm pretty certain that moving things like carrier groups into position could have been done...

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Another thought occured to me about the grotesque scenes that have been talked about at the Superdome.

While some of these are talked up, there appears no doubt that a number of rapes and murders HAVE taken place there.

So I was wondering, well the situation is desperate and bizzare but nothing to explain raping and killing kids.

What possibly could?

And then I thought - oh yeah - CRACK COCAINE

Perhaps the chaos has facilitated even more crack madness than is the norm.

 

[Bigdavalad]

Yeah, and this helicopter nonsense...the Blackhawk's range is 1150 nautical miles...and I'm pretty certain that moving things like carrier groups into position could have been done...

No until after the storm passed - unless you fancy trying to work out how to drag an 80,000 ton, several billion dollar ship full of water off the bottom of the ocean.

 

[kyser_soze]

Yeah that's true...still, could have been done after the storm passed, no?

Wasn't tho was it?

 

[Bigdavalad]

Yeah that's true...still, could have been done after the storm passed, no?

Wasn't tho was it?

Don't know, I did read that a Carrier group was on its way there a few days ago, but can't remember where. Think it was before the weekend though - it must have arrived by now?

You'd be better off sending asssault ships over pure aircraft carriers really - they carry far more helicopters and the fast jets from the carriers will be no good for this job.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> You'd be better off sending asssault ships over pure aircraft carriers really - they carry far more helicopters and the fast jets from the carriers will be no good for this job.

You mean one of these things? http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/lha-1.htm

Hospital on board - check
Lots of helicopters - check
Lots of boats & hovercraft - check
Enough logistics stuff for a brigade - check

Yes, looks quite useful under these circumstances. They're probably all off "projecting power" someplace though.

 

[Bigdavalad]

You mean one of these things? http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/lha-1.htm

Hospital on board - check
Lots of helicopters - check
Lots of boats & hovercraft - check
Enough logistics stuff for a brigade - check

Yes, looks quite useful under these circumstances. They're probably all off "projecting power" someplace though.

That's the exact thing (ours is called HMS Ocean and the Royal Marines go and play on her a lot) - as you say - loads of helicopters, loads of deck space to keep the people on until they could be taken somewhere else and enough logistics & medical backup to look after a whole brigade (which is roughly 3000-4000 soldiers), would make far more sense than an aircraft carrier full of F/A-18s, F-14s and EA-6Bs and only a few helicopters (some of which will only be smaller anti-submarine types rather than the large transport types needed).

No idea what the Yanks have done with all of theirs though, wouldn't have though they would still be in Iraq now

 

[kyser_soze]

Well way back in the mists of time I remember reading, with that salivating glee only teenagers and GOPpers can manage when reading stuff about materiel, the Nimitz has the fire fighting capacity of a city of 200,000 people and can pump water at some ludicrous rate, has support facilities for up to an additional 75,000 persons as well as it's crew of 25,000...and that's just one carrier.

Although as has been observed, they're all off projecting power somewhere innit?

 

[Bigdavalad]

Well way back in the mists of time I remember reading, with that salivating glee only teenagers and GOPpers can manage when reading stuff about materiel, the Nimitz has the fire fighting capacity of a city of 200,000 people and can pump water at some ludicrous rate, has support facilities for up to an additional 75,000 persons as well as it's crew of 25,000...and that's just one carrier.

Although as has been observed, they're all off projecting power somewhere innit?

The firefighting bit is almost certainly true, because fire is the biggest worry on ships, according to the naval type people I know. It would be no good at NO though, because it's all internal fire fighting, not fire fighting on land.
They probably have the support facilities, but the don't have the types of aircraft that would be any good here - if you were suggesting an assault ship and a carrier, and using the copters from the assault ship to ferry people to the carrier, then we'd really be talking sensible.

 

[kyser_soze]

I'd have thought that the USM would be more than capable of taking stock of an emergency situation and saying 'This is how we need to repurpose the ships, lets do it'.

 

[Bigdavalad]

I'd have thought that the USM would be more than capable of taking stock of an emergency situation and saying 'This is how we need to repurpose the ships, lets do it'.

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

 

[detective-boy]

If it's not a capital city, does it become ok to allow the poorer citizens to die?

If you take out a capital city, with the inevitable focus of resources, decision making, etc. then that is a significantly different situation to a large city being affected elsewhere, allowing the capital city to orchestrate a response.

Don't even think about trying to read any form of discrimination into my comments. You really do need some form of treatment.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

These would be helicopters that rescue people from the sea wouldn't they? That's the main reason they are used for S&R is that they don't need to land anywhere..

The people left in the hospitals at that time were critically ill, on life support, etc. If you try to lift them out in a basket or with those underarm straps, the machinery can't go with them, and they'll die.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

That's the exact thing (ours is called HMS Ocean and the Royal Marines go and play on her a lot) - as you say - loads of helicopters, loads of deck space to keep the people on until they could be taken somewhere else and enough logistics & medical backup to look after a whole brigade (which is roughly 3000-4000 soldiers), would make far more sense than an aircraft carrier full of F/A-18s, F-14s and EA-6Bs and only a few helicopters (some of which will only be smaller anti-submarine types rather than the large transport types needed).

No idea what the Yanks have done with all of theirs though, wouldn't have though they would still be in Iraq now

I read some of the stuff on the FAS site about those ships. The US has about a dozen of those big ones, and several dozen smaller versions. Usually they go around together, with a bunch of little ones accompanying a big one. Often, I think always when invading someplace, they accompany a carrier battle group, presumably so that they can benefit from its air superiority fighters. They also get used as HQ ships, and very likely some are doing that now in Iraq.

For this scenario you could hardly imagine anything more useful in terms of being able to help people. They're mainly for invading places though I think.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'd have thought that the USM would be more than capable of taking stock of an emergency situation and saying 'This is how we need to repurpose the ships, lets do it'.

It's not even in issue that the army, marines etc have the capacity to bring rapid relief; there's no need to argue over what type of ship should be sent.

The problem is, when was the 'go' order given. Here, it was given too late.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

If you take out a capital city, with the inevitable focus of resources, decision making, etc. then that is a significantly different situation to a large city being affected elsewhere, allowing the capital city to orchestrate a response.

Don't even think about trying to read any form of discrimination into my comments. You really do need some form of treatment.

Dude, it's possible to disagree with you, and not need treatment. You really do sound like a cop.