What can we learn from the social breakdown in New Orleans?

[Johnny Canuck3]

No, let's play this one. It'll be Bristol. (Apparently similar size).

What'll I do? Fuck, react quickly to make sure the most vulnerable are safe first. The elderly, the infirm, and so on. And - incidentally - we're supposed to have full scale disaster contingency plans in all local authority areas. I would have hoped that New Orleans' plan took into account the fact that so much of it is below sea, river, and lake level.

Given the continual comparison this week, I imagine Bristol city council is looking over their disaster plan right now...

Fair enough, London is much bigger, but then the resources on hand there will be that much larger.

NO: five hundred thousand people. One third of them below the poverty line, so therefore likely with limited transportation access, etc.

Hospitals full of people recently operated on, people with alzheimers, people who can't walk. Plus many people in the city who just will not want to leave.

Then, add to the mix that gulf cities often get hurricane warnings, or even are hit by hurricanes, with only minor damage, so people are a bit jaded when the alarms go off.

How much will your evacuation plans accomplish in 48 hours?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

More and more this time with press releases and news pages (via wayback machine) showing a firm called IHS won the contract to do among other things, hurricane planning. They were even bragging about what a good job they'd done at it by the look of things.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Seriously though you'd think that a country that has so much experience of hurricanes that they'd bother to draw a few civil contingency plans? I mean they spent decades and millions (if not billions) on running wargames for worst case scenerios for nuclear war, they've done the same with terror threats why not draw up plans for dealing with a natural threat to national security?

How much good would it do?

Like you said, they're big on war games and scenario planning, but even so, look at Iraq.

Are you really going to count on govt bureaucracy to come up with effective planning in any area?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

How much good would it do?

Like you said, they're big on war games and scenario planning, but even so, look at Iraq.

Are you really going to count on govt bureaucracy to come up with effective planning in any area?

Take a look at the recent attacks in London, the emergency services were in part prepared, they'd at least thought about the likelyhood and drew up plans for it. Why did you government not do this?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Take a look at the recent attacks in London, the emergency services were in part prepared, they'd at least thought about the likelyhood and drew up plans for it. Why did you government not do this?

From what I've seen, there was chaos there, and London basically ground to a halt for at least a day or more.

That is natural in the face of an unforeseen occurrence, no matter how much planning you've done.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So I think one thing this teaches us is do not privatise safety critical public services.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

From what I've seen, there was chaos there, and London basically ground to a halt for at least a day or more.

That is natural in the face of an unforeseen occurrence, no matter how much planning you've done.

I'm saying it was perfect or even done well, the point is they tired. You still haven't asnwered my question; why did your government do nothing to plan for an eventuality like this?

 

[pilchardman]

One third of them below the poverty line, so therefore likely with limited transportation access, etc.

Hospitals full of people recently operated on, people with alzheimers, people who can't walk.

They don't have buses in New Orleans?

I'm not say a perfect job could have been done, but an attempt might have been made. Can't you lay on buses? Can't you transport ill people while the roads are dry, rather than wait until the hospital blows down and makes your job harder?

At least try?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

From what I've seen, there was chaos there, and London basically ground to a halt for at least a day or more.

That is natural in the face of an unforeseen occurrence, no matter how much planning you've done.

Actually I stand partially corrected someone was thinking about this but I guess noone important was listening?

Shockingly, even in the wake of the Asian tsunami catastrophe, there has been little widespread discussion of scenarios in which the United States could find part of its home territory devastated by the sea. Chatter in New Orleans itself has largely focused on improving evacuation plans and reducing gridlock as a storm approaches. These are necessary conversations to have, certainly, but bigger-picture perspectives have rarely surfaced in broader public discussions. That has to change -- and fast. Whatever other natural catastrophes we may be willing to tolerate, the possibility of losing an entire city, and especially the legendary (if also infamous) New Orleans, ought to be out of the question.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They don't have buses in New Orleans?

I'm not say a perfect job could have been done, but an attempt might have been made. Can't you lay on buses? Can't you transport ill people while the roads are dry, rather than wait until the hospital blows down and makes your job harder?

At least try?

You can't transport post-ops on buses. You can't transfer people on respirators on buses, etc.

And I doubt that there are enough buses in NO to transport 150,000 people basically all at once.

And where do you send the buses first: to seniors citizen housing complexes? To hospitals? To orphanages? To rehab centres?

Make no mistake: I think that the response to this emergency was way to slow and disorganized, but I recognize that in the face of something this massive, there will be major disruption, there will be loss of life, there will be a time of disorder, and no amount of govt planning can prevent that.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Just spoke with my wife; currently on tv, they showed footage of a Coast Guard helicopter picking up people from near the convention center, and taking them to a ship....... but the helicopter would only pick up white people.

Also, at the hospitals that haven't been evacuated, the doctors and nurses are now giving one another IVs, in order to keep going.

 

[pilchardman]

And I doubt that there are enough buses in NO to transport 150,000 people basically all at once.

Relays. Co-ordinate with surrounding states. Have a plan that says. "When the word comes, you get x number of buses to place 1, 2 and 3, and we'll bring the first load of people there for you to pick up" That sort of thing.

OK, some people can't go on a bus. But hospitals have no transport? They do in this country. Look, I'm making no jingoistic point here. I'm merely saying it's shocking that more effort wasn't made.

And if a company was being paid to come up with a plan, how far had they got in getting the plan ready?

 

[revol68]

the racism in the media is fucking disgusting, everytime they show black people in stores they are "looting" and when it's white folks "it's getting supplies."

One definately gets the impression that the fact it's mostly the poor and elderly left in New Orleans hasn't really hastened the governments response and explains why the min concern seemed to be about getting in armed troops than food and supplies.

 

[spring-peeper]

Just spoke with my wife; currently on tv, they showed footage of a Coast Guard helicopter picking up people from near the convention center, and taking them to a ship....... but the helicopter would only pick up white people.

Also, at the hospitals that haven't been evacuated, the doctors and nurses are now giving one another IVs, in order to keep going.

wtf!!!

please tell me that this is an example of selective media reporting.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Relays. Co-ordinate with surrounding states. Have a plan that says. "When the word comes, you get x number of buses to place 1, 2 and 3, and we'll bring the first load of people there for you to pick up" That sort of thing.

OK, some people can't go on a bus. But hospitals have no transport? They do in this country. Look, I'm making no jingoistic point here. I'm merely saying it's shocking that more effort wasn't made.

And if a company was being paid to come up with a plan, how far had they got in getting the plan ready?

It sounds so easy when you type it. Relays. Hospital ambulances. Places for 150,000 to go.

And all planned in 48 hours.

 

[pilchardman]

It sounds so easy when you type it. Relays. Hospital ambulances. Places for 150,000 to go.

And all planned in 48 hours.

No, all prepared for in advance. In the case of New Orleans by a company paid to do so, it would seem.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Just trying to do some figuring: how many people can you get on a bus: fifty?

That means 3000 buses.

New York city has 4500 buses.

http://www.metro-magazine.com/brt_pdf/9top100.pdf

New York has 8 million people.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well, the thing is, y'know, you have things called emergency plans, or disaster plans. We have one in my library. It's based on the various disasters that might actually occur.

In the case of a city that's below sea level - I wonder if anybody can suggest what might possibly happen?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Have you ever been anywhere when the fire alarm went off for real?

We used to have fire drills in school; all schools do.

Then one day, a couple of kids pulled it. The teachers, everyone, thought it was real. There was a stampede for the door, with the teachers in the front of the pack.

Sometimes even planning can go awry.

 

[pilchardman]

Well, the thing is, y'know, you have things called emergency plans, or disaster plans. We have one in my library. It's based on the various disasters that might actually occur.

In the case of a city that's below sea level - I wonder if anybody can suggest what might possibly happen?

Exactly.

Or. Here's a thing. We could just say "Fuck it. We'll never manage it. How about we just get the police chief to tell those who can to haul ass. Sad about the rest, but it's just too much like hard work".

 

[pilchardman]

New York city has 4500 buses.

http://www.metro-magazine.com/brt_pdf/9top100.pdf

New York has 8 million people.

OK. So if you don't have time to make 1, 777.7 journeys, you think of additional modes of transport. What else has NYC got? Trains? Planes?

You give up too easy, Johnny.

 

[pbman]

Napolean said a population was only 3 meals from revolution.

The circumstances of New Orleans are extreme and obviously tragic, but do the lawlessness and lack of organisation say a great deal about the context of a capitalist society that the disaster took place in?
?

Your correct but it was a courpt one led by liberal democrats.

Liberals have a very very hard time dealing with violence, they waited way to long to put a stop to it.

 

[quamp1]

Unfortunately, what it means is that history will repeat itself.

In 1992, after hurricane Andrew struck Miami, the same kind of lawlessness and anarchy ruled until Federal troops arrived. If memory serves, it took them about a week to restore order.
I think it's the shock of being knocked out of complacency; Americans aren't used to widespread food and medicine shortages. Not expecting a shortage of food can cause panic. A panic that will spread like wildfire if not quickly taken care of. True, some Americans do go hungry, however; it's a generally accepted principle that if you earn enough money, you'll always be able to afford something to eat.

Housing is a bit scarce in the area; even way over here in Dallas Texas, rescue workers are being housed and flown from hotels here to the area. A convention that was going to be held at a hotel here was postphoned indefintely to give relief workers a place to stay.

 

[Sorry.]

I read on another thread that the Cubans managed to evacuate 1.2m people from the path of a hurricane and the Chinese managed 1.87m. So, "there was nothing they could do" doesn't really cut it.

 

[nino_savatte]

OK. So if you don't have time to make 1, 777.7 journeys, you think of additional modes of transport. What else has NYC got? Trains? Planes?

You give up too easy, Johnny.

He's actually making a somewhat cack-handed attempt to defend the incompetency of the authorities. In fact, he's playing games with you and evryone else on this thread. Notice how pbman is also hanging around.

 

[nino_savatte]

Your correct but it was a courpt one led by liberal democrats.

Liberals have a very very hard time dealing with violence, they waited way to long to put a stop to it.

Of course, it was the "liberal democrats". I see you changed your tune from smearing all Demcrats to just the "liberal" ones.

 

[pilchardman]

He's actually making a somewhat cack-handed attempt to defend the incompetency of the authorities.

Yes, I'd spotted that. I'm not sure what your point is, though.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes, I'd spotted that. I'm not sure what your point is, though.

My "point"? Expect more of the same.

 

[pilchardman]

My "point"? Expect more of the same.

I see. I already do, but thanks for the warning.

 

[In Bloom]

Your correct but it was a courpt one led by liberal democrats.

Liberals have a very very hard time dealing with violence, they waited way to long to put a stop to it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1562005,00.html
George Bush arrived last night in the ravaged Gulf coast region amid mounting criticism of his handling of the crisis and a prediction by one senator that the death toll in Louisiana alone could top 10,000 people.

As thousands of people sat on the streets of New Orleans, having spent their fourth day waiting to be rescued, the city fell deeper into chaos, with gangs roaming the city and corpses rotting in the sun.

Kathleen Blanco, the Democrat governor of Louisiana, threatened looters with a shoot-to-kill policy.

"These troops are battle-tested. They have M16s and are locked and loaded," she said. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."

Doesn't look like they have any problem with violence to me. In fact, they seem pretty eager to protect property at the expense of human life, funny that