What Are the Jesuits All About

[DotCommunist]

I find Catholicism darkly attractive, and go to Mass fairly regularly (though I dont take Communion). I think part of the attraction is surrendering yourself to mother church and not having to think for yourself again.

The comfort of symbolism and tradition, ceremony and hierarchy. Much like the fascism who they allied themselves with a lot

 

[xes]

I find Catholicism darkly attractive, and go to Mass fairly regularly (though I dont take Communion). I think part of the attraction is surrendering yourself to mother church and not having to think for yourself again.

Just like sitting infront of the telly

 

[Belushi]

The comfort of symbolism and tradition, ceremony and hierarchy.

Yes, and the sheer length of its history

Much like the fascism who they allied themselves with a lot

lol, I aint opening that can of worms

 

[cesare]

whereas yours prefer the nonce-sense of supplication to the priest

Ah but I maintain my anti-organised religion stance in its entirety. But you get a bit worked up about the papists.

 

[DotCommunist]

I have a healthy suspicion of the catholic priesthood yes. When they aint noncing choirboys they are undermining the efforts of self organisation amongst poor societies. Death to the priests! Death and thrice death!

 

[cesare]

I find Catholicism darkly attractive, and go to Mass fairly regularly (though I dont take Communion). I think part of the attraction is surrendering yourself to mother church and not having to think for yourself again.

I can see the darkly attractive side, and it appeals to something in me for sure. I have never and hopefully will never go to Mass unless I have to by way of wedding/christening/funeral though. I'd rather keep that darkly attractive thing at arm's length, and try and work out why it's darkly attractive.

 

[paulhackett]

Ah but I maintain my anti-organised religion stance in its entirety.

^^^^ this..

I lived in a Jesuit monastery for a while. Can't say they ever spoke to me about anything other than when I was leaving! They don't do as they preach from my experience..

Plus point is the Michael Apted tv series, which started in 64
Another plus is that for some people religion/faith provides comfort (even those aware of the exploitative nature of a church)
Another plus is the Gunpowder plot

 

[Shevek]

they are undermining the efforts of self organisation amongst poor societies.

Jean Bertrand Aristide, Archbishop Romero, Manuel Las Casas

 

[DotCommunist]

Agents doing good within a system do not endorse a corrupt system.

 

[cesare]

I have a healthy suspicion of the catholic priesthood yes. When they aint noncing choirboys they are undermining the efforts of self organisation amongst poor societies. Death to the priests! Death and thrice death!

They're still one of the biggest and most profitable/long lasting businesses in the world.

You can laugh at them, but they're still raking it in.

 

[DotCommunist]

They're still one of the biggest and most profitable/long lasting businesses in the world.

You can laugh at them, but they're still raking it in.

aye and they profit via means I find fucking disgusting. Mugging of people via spirituality.

e2a

yes the proddy traditions aren't squeky clean there either but then they aren't the dominants in some of our poorest societies eh?

 

[xes]

aye and they profit via means I find fucking disgusting. Mugging of people via spirituality.

It's not even proper spirituality either. It's a few moral stories, with a bit of "don't do this and don't do that" thrown in for some good old fashioned control.

 

[cesare]

aye and they profit via means I find fucking disgusting. Mugging of people via spirituality.

For sure. And the protestants/non-conformists do the same. There's a rizla between em in the profit making stakes.

Organised religion and Capitalism feed off each other for profit. They just squabble about territory.

 

[Shevek]

How does the church make money exactly? a few pennies in the offetory box.

 

[mistere]

I find Catholicism darkly attractive, and go to Mass fairly regularly (though I dont take Communion). I think part of the attraction is surrendering yourself to mother church and not having to think for yourself again.

I just read (literally, about 2 hours ago) The Grand Inquisitor from The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoyevsky and that's pretty much the exact argument he makes about the Catholic Church, the surrender (and the attractiveness of the surrender) of freedom and free-will.

 

[DotCommunist]

How does the church make money exactly? a few pennies in the offetory box.

Lands, estates, stuff willed to them, large donations.

The Church of Rome is OLD. And they gained most of thier wealth during the feudalist period

 

[Belushi]

How does the church make money exactly? a few pennies in the offetory box.

The Church is a hugely wealthy organisation, just think of the worldwide property holdings for a start.

 

[Shevek]

wasn't JRR Tolkein a catholic?

 

[mistere]

Lands, estates, stuff willed to them, large donations.

The Church of Rome is OLD. And they gained most of thier wealth during the feudalist period

Don't forgot doing banking for the mafia, plus all the property/gold/money they seized from heretics/Jews/etc in the past.

 

[DotCommunist]

wasn't JRR Tolkein a catholic?

nominal iirc. Converted on the wishes of his wife, from CofE

iirc

 

[cesare]

How does the church make money exactly? a few pennies in the offetory box.

Which church? Do yoou think that a few pennies in the offetory box is what any church subsists on?

The Jesuits own huge tracts of land in the UK. Look at that for starters.

 

[Shevek]

what is all this stuff about the attractiveness of surrender? I kind of get the bizarre fascination with the catholic church and its weird attractiveness but I tend to keep it at a distance as someone else said.

I had to interview a catholic priest about a week ago

 

[krtek a houby]

I was schooled for a few years by the J's.

I owe them eternal debt, I rejected organised religion pretty much soon after I'd left the place

 

[cesare]

what is all this stuff about the attractiveness of surrender? I kind of get the bizarre fascination with the catholic church and its weird attractiveness but I tend to keep it at a distance as someone else said.

I had to interview a catholic priest about a week ago

Concentrating on the god angle is a complete waste of time. Yes, human need for spirituality comes into it, but at the end of the day it's big business. (And very successful, enduring big business).

 

[mistere]

what is all this stuff about the attractiveness of surrender? I kind of get the bizarre fascination with the catholic church and its weird attractiveness but I tend to keep it at a distance as someone else said.

I had to interview a catholic priest about a week ago

I've probably had little too much red wine to do it justice tonight, but seriously read The Grand Inquisitor, it might even be online and it's pretty interesting. It has a very cynical and nasty view of human nature which I don't agree with, but there's a shadow of truth in it. People (many people, anyway) want "the answer", they want there to be one answer that they can learn and then give up searching. When an institution (whether the Catholic Church or the Communist Party or anything in between) offers "the answer" it's attractive; to be able to commit to something, to know that you're right, to have the difficult questions answered so you never need to worry about how to act in complicated situations. It's an attractive proposition and I think that everyone probably has some small part of them that wants to find that somewhere, some people think that they have found it in Catholicism, or any other strong ideology.

ETA: Here you go: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/dostgi.html

 

[Shevek]

Concentrating on the god angle is a complete waste of time. Yes, human need for spirituality comes into it, but at the end of the day it's big business. (And very successful, enduring big business).

How is it a big business though, i don't understand.

 

[cesare]

I've probably had little too much red wine to do it justice tonight, but seriously read The Grand Inquisitor, it might even be online and it's pretty interesting. It has a very cynical and nasty view of human nature which I don't agree with, but there's a shadow of truth in it. People (many people, anyway) want "the answer", they want there to be one answer that they can learn and then give up searching. When an institution (whether the Catholic Church or the Communist Party or anything in between) offers "the answer" it's attractive; to be able to commit to something, to know that you're right, to have the difficult questions answered so you never need to worry about how to act in complicated situations. It's an attractive proposition and I think that everyone probably has some small part of them that wants to find that somewhere, some people think that they have found it in Catholicism, or any other strong ideology.

Or watch The Mission.

 

[cesare]

How is it a big business though, i don't understand.

Every church asks for money/donations. Most churches get wealthy on that. Not rocket science.

 

[Shevek]

I've probably had little too much red wine to do it justice tonight, but seriously read The Grand Inquisitor, it might even be online and it's pretty interesting. It has a very cynical and nasty view of human nature which I don't agree with, but there's a shadow of truth in it. People (many people, anyway) want "the answer", they want there to be one answer that they can learn and then give up searching. When an institution (whether the Catholic Church or the Communist Party or anything in between) offers "the answer" it's attractive; to be able to commit to something, to know that you're right, to have the difficult questions answered so you never need to worry about how to act in complicated situations. It's an attractive proposition and I think that everyone probably has some small part of them that wants to find that somewhere, some people think that they have found it in Catholicism, or any other strong ideology.

I read an interesting piece by Ursula K Le Guin entitled something like 'The Child and its Shadow' (google it - sorry i cant post links cos of my fucked up mac). She draws a distinction between ideology 'isms' and 'felt' religion.

 

[DotCommunist]

Every church asks for money/donations. Most churches get wealthy on that. Not rocket science.

Let's not forget how it was at one point traditional for childless landowners to leave the land to the church, Kings to make themselves look good by gifting the church with lands and estates etc.

It's 2k yrs worth of money. Shit accumulates.