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What a shame that socialism has ruined the UK

It is Pete the Greek's fault. I always though, till now, that all the yak about immigration was tory nonsense, but now they've let in this drivelling nutter in to frighten the children! Send 'em ALL home to the bottom of the Mediterranean, I say!
 
Pete the Greek said:
Even though they only formed 1 in 3 governments throughout the 20th Century, when they were in power, they always seemed to majorly fuck everything up.

Labour are responsible for all that is shit and evil in this country. Rubbish, vile council blocks, a culture of dependency, molly coddled trade unions, liberal policing policies and law and order, weak sentencing of criminals, the list goes on.

Old Labourites and Socialists - the bane of the earth.

The New Labourites are Third Way (centrists), not 'socialists'.
 
Idaho said:
I think we need Thatcher back to get some proper trade unions together to fight the asylums.

I'd hurry up mate as very soon you'll need shovels to get Thatcher back. :D

I thought all the 'asylums' had already been sold off by that corpse, err, sorry Thatcher :D and why would the unions want to fight them anyway? :confused:
 
MC5 said:
I'd hurry up mate as very soon you'll need shovels to get Thatcher back. :D

I thought all the 'asylums' had already been sold off by that corpse, err, sorry Thatcher :D and why would the unions want to fight them anyway? :confused:
I think Idaho was taking the piss
 
Pete the Greek said:
Even though they only formed 1 in 3 governments throughout the 20th Century, when they were in power, they always seemed to majorly fuck everything up.

Labour are responsible for all that is shit and evil in this country. Rubbish, vile council blocks, a culture of dependency, molly coddled trade unions, liberal policing policies and law and order, weak sentencing of criminals, the list goes on.

Old Labourites and Socialists - the bane of the earth.

Hummmm . . . . I think it could appear this way, but the reality is somewhat more subtle. And there is a danger with perceiving ruling Labour governments as part of the same mass as 'the left'. To be honest, Labour government ministers may start out as being part of the the 'the left' but I honestly believe the requirements of government, the practicalities of running a country, mean a lot of idealistic beliefs soon get thrown out of the window as realistically unworkable.

I'll take your first point about council blocks. I agree, but council blocks of the 60s and 70s are atrocious. Architectural crimes against humanity. So why were they built?

I think out of good, but misguided, intentions. I'll speak about the Calder valley because it is an area I know well. In some places, it proved cheaper to destroy old mill cottages and build cheap highrises than to install inside bathrooms and then build more housing to cater for demand. The baby boom meant more people needed bigger and better homes. The housing stock was outdated (no internal plumbing, no central heating, no insulation) so building cheap and knocking down old seemed the best option at the time. Yes, people got backhanders; yes, it turned out to be a disaster . . . . but governments never think long term, do they?

Dependancy culture . . . another idea with wonderful intentions that turned out to have negative consequences - not that Lloyd George (yep, the spark of the welfare state began with a Liberal) would ever have foreseen that his state unemployment insurance would turn out the way it did. All he wanted was security for the working man in case of unemployment. Remember: many of those working men were highly suspicious of paying the government money at the time. They preferred to stay with their friendly societies.

In some ways, it is the same as the NHS. An idea that starts with a horror over the poor disease-ridden state of British conscripts turns into a service where people play hell if a doctor won't give them a sick note for court.

When it comes to liberal policing policies, law and order and the weak sentencing of criminals, well, I don't know just how liberal Labour governments have actually been. I suspect you may be viewing a Labour government through the lens of certain leftist commentaries that, sometimes, I suspect hold a position akin to masochism when it comes to supporting ideas that are completely against their self interest. Some leftist take their ideologies way too far - to the extent, they are anti-themselves. :D

When it comes to Old Labourites and socialists, well, I don't reckon we've ever had any of those in power really. And Old Labourites, real Old Labour, I mean, the kind of folk that wrote the first manifesto on a piece of paper back in the 20s (one of the points demanding an end to compulsory vaccinations, no less) weren't really socialists, more conservative protectionists, which would explain why a lot of their intended inheritors voted Tory in later years (the construction of this point is tricky, I know, but I've had a couple of beers.)

And don't get me started on unions. That's another idea that went tits up in some circumstances - largely because parts of the left refused to see the situation in any way other than factory owners = bad, workers = good (this extreme polarisation has continued into contemporary times: ie. US = bad, Everyone that is anti-US = good, even if they are anti-me). Unions were great for the 19th century, but pants for those folk that worked in good factories and where union reps came in and caused havoc, leading to a loss of benefits for workers.

You see, PtG, if you really wanted to make a statement I could agree with you would have to say: "What a shame that well-meaning middle class imbeciles, with no actual experience of the complexities of other people's lives, have ruined the UK with their do-gooder, pious bollocks that made everything so much worse."

:D
 
I've been thinking a bit more about this and, laying my cards on the table, I guess I believe that the process of governing turns left-leaning individuals to ideas and policies that could be perceived as 'selling-out' or 'Toryism' to other leftists.

Ideas become tempered, largely because of the nature of governing.

To detail. Ime, left-leaning individuals come in two camps: empathetic reflective individuals that want things to be better, to be fairer, that know the world could be different than the way it is today; and self-righteous idiots who scream and holler largely because 'they are right and everyone less is wrong'.

If you belong in the first camp and you find yourself in government, are you really going to disrupt thousands of people's lives for maybe three or four generations just to purse one of your ideals?

No, you will not. You are empathetic, you are trying to do what is right for your fellow man. You will know that, say, privatising the railways may result in thousands of people losing value in their pension provision. You will know that such an act will cause chaos in the financial system. How ever much you believe it is a just act, what disruption, what consequence, is actually worth it? Do you even want to decide?

To give a more contemporary situation: how much disruption - how many people's lives - are worth the downfall of a totalitarian, almost fascist dictator? Anti-fascism is a left-wing benchmark, but is it worth the life of an Iraqi child? Two, three, four? Five hundred? Do you even want to decide? Or do you let it lie? And then get accused by other left-wingers of turning a blind eye to atrocities in Hussein's Iraq? Get accused of being a Tory because you will not take action. And, indeed, you may ask yourself, what action can I take?

I sound like I am apologising for Blair. I am not. But I think political and ideological ideals are easy, so long as you never have to act upon them in an executive position.

Anbd I think it is an awareness of this problem that shunted me to be more of a centralist than I was before.

Edited to add: this 'centralism' is a "personal shunting" more towards the middle, not a support for typical centralist policies.
 
Against Socialism

Article by Professor Ian Angell

Against Socialism

What is Socialism? It's easier to say what it's not! Forget about the propaganda about looking after the poor - that's just spin, window dressing. And it's also a lie; except in so far as socialism makes everybody poor.

Socialism is a philosophy of power, of a group (the workers) with a 'project,' which aims to turn society into a well oiled-machine; social engineering, the factory metaphor turned on society. Socialists, pious commentators, "become virtuous from indignation" (Nietzsche). Certain in their rightness, or rather self-righteousness, they launch "intimidation and glorification" (Barthes) on society. "Domination is transfigured into administration" (Marcuse). However, "the victory of the [socialist] moral ideal is achieved by the same 'immoral' means as every other victory: force, lies, slander, injustice." (Nietzsche)

Socialism's mode of operation is violence against the means of production, and to 'redistribute wealth': gangsterism and theft. That is until they take over, and then no-one, except the leadership, has any rights. The law is not meant for party members. Socialism has brought nothing but grief. From Hitler (for we tend to forget that Hitler was a socialist), Stalin, Chairman Mao, Kim Il Sung.

<editor: ton of cut and paste removed. Article here: http://personal.lse.ac.uk/angell/papers/against socialism/against socialism.htm >
 
ViolentPanda said:
It's your thread, why don't you?

I never contested its meaning, Blagsta did. Hence the question.

It's not provocation, I'm genuinely interested in his reply.

BTW: You two and one or two othe posters, like maomao, would do well to remember that I generally steer clear from nasty, vindictive insults and abuse and while I post up some contrarian crap sometimes, I do so with good will. So leave out the nasty attitude ok? I'm just chattin'

:cool:
 
Dissident Junk said:
Remember: many of those working men were highly suspicious of paying the government money at the time. They preferred to stay with their friendly societies.
A couple of excellent posts there. On the specific point of unintended consequences, the most unexpected was that government welfare curtailed individual freedom. Dependency upon the state begets an unwillingness to challenge that state.

I would have loved to see friendly societies continue, with government regulation and, perhaps, some tax money to cover their overheads. If welfare had remained de-centralised and local then the scope for government control would be vastly curtailed. Vast, centralised bureaucracies not only increase the potential for state control, they increase feelings of resentment against unseen claimants, and unpleasant talk of "scroungers" and "dole scum".

The tyranny of government is evil. The tyranny of the workhouse is also evil. It should not be beyond the wit of a nation to escape both.
 
Pete the Greek said:
I never contested its meaning, Blagsta did. Hence the question.
No, but you've posited a meaning through the medium of your OP.
It's not provocation, I'm genuinely interested in his reply.

BTW: You two and one or two othe posters, like maomao, would do well to remember that I generally steer clear from nasty, vindictive insults and abuse and while I post up some contrarian crap sometimes, I do so with good will. So leave out the nasty attitude ok? I'm just chattin'

:cool:

What "nasty attitude" would that be, the attitude that led me to observe that you're a shit troll, or to speculate that you're a PE teacher?

Hardly a "nasty attitude", Pete.

Well, not unless you're so thin-skinned your nickname is "Walls Sausage".

Oh, and why would I "do well to remember" it? It's not as if you're exactly good at exchanges of insults, you couldn't even outwit flimsier! :p
 
ViolentPanda said:
No, but you've posited a meaning through the medium of your OP.


What "nasty attitude" would that be, the attitude that led me to observe that you're a shit troll, or to speculate that you're a PE teacher?

Hardly a "nasty attitude", Pete.

Well, not unless you're so thin-skinned your nickname is "Walls Sausage".

Oh, and why would I "do well to remember" it? It's not as if you're exactly good at exchanges of insults, you couldn't even outwit flimsier! :p

You right there - I didn't come off well in those exhanges with nonamenoprick, but to be fair, it did entail having to stoop so low on the ladder of abuse, I'd break my back trying.

Ok, let's leave it out now

;)
 
Pete the Greek said:
So what does it mean, Blagsta?

Do tell.

You want me to deconstruct and critique that article in all its wrongheadedness? :eek: Sorry mate, but I've got better things to do with my time. However, may I point you in the direction of Google?
 
Pete the Greek said:
So what does it mean, Blagsta?

Do tell.

Or why don't you address some of the valid points by those who would disagree with the Mail leader you call an opening post? How about brining a cohesive arguement, hell any arguement, to support the radom list of factual innacuracies and non-sequiters you felt were of such importance to start a thread on them?

Do tell.
 
TAE said:
It certainly doesn't mean "violence against the means of production".
Yeah it does. You social workers want to smash up factories and fill them full of gay drugs :mad:
 
Dissident Junk said:
I've been thinking a bit more about this and, laying my cards on the table, I guess I believe that the process of governing turns left-leaning individuals to ideas and policies that could be perceived as 'selling-out' or 'Toryism' to other leftists.

Ideas become tempered, largely because of the nature of governing.

To detail. Ime, left-leaning individuals come in two camps: empathetic reflective individuals that want things to be better, to be fairer, that know the world could be different than the way it is today; and self-righteous idiots who scream and holler largely because 'they are right and everyone less is wrong'.

Completely and utterly disagree. There are plenty of bands of leftism, most notably (in my experience) from those who are sick and fed up of their jobs and lives and come to the natural conclusion that their employer is their oppressor and the government is it's tool. Either or, well read individuals who see the logic in Marx' economical workings.
 
Frank1 said:
Article by Professor Ian Angell

Against Socialism

What is Socialism? It's easier to say what it's not! Forget about the propaganda about looking after the poor - that's just spin, window dressing. And it's also a lie; except in so far as socialism makes everybody poor.

Socialism is a philosophy of power, of a group (the workers) with a 'project,' which aims to turn society into a well oiled-machine; social engineering, the factory metaphor turned on society. Socialists, pious commentators, "become virtuous from indignation" (Nietzsche). Certain in their rightness, or rather self-righteousness, they launch "intimidation and glorification" (Barthes) on society. "Domination is transfigured into administration" (Marcuse). However, "the victory of the [socialist] moral ideal is achieved by the same 'immoral' means as every other victory: force, lies, slander, injustice." (Nietzsche)
....

I should like to see this fella's scribblings on the glories of capitalism. That should be a wheeze.
 
Ye gods, it's the kind of critique of socialism I'd expect from my gran. Someone should drop him a line and let him know that whole ressentiment thing is a couple of hundred years out of date. :eek:
 
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