nino_savatte
No pasaran!
oisleep said:
I think Cadmus has a problem...maybe he's really Ustaše or one of Tudjman's relatives.
Western Media Ignores Serb US Memorials of Jasenovac
- Thread starter oisleep
- Start date
I think Cadmus has a problem...maybe he's really Ustaše or one of Tudjman's relatives.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I got a reply from the BBC. Correct me if I'm wrong but there have been no programmes (to date) on TV about Jasenovac and the Ustaše. Here the person replying to my email has totally confused WWII with the last Balkan War...what sort of people are they hiring at the BBC these days?
Wankers.
Wankers.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
oisleep said:
Aye, with a name like Crispian he could only be an ex-public school type (possibly Oxbridge too). What a dick.
I suspect the 10th anniversary of operation storm tomorrow (Aug 4th) and the driving out of hundreds of thousands of serbs from a place they had lived for nearly 500 years will be given the same shabby treatment in the media as that of the Jasenovac memorials (except of course in croatia where the celebrate it )
)EuroDude2006
New Member
It was right and proper. Milosevic had turned Bosnia into Auschwitz. He would have done the same in Kosovo unless stopped. He was a mini-Hitler whose graduation to a fully-fledged one had to be stopped.
He killed political opponents inside Serbia. He was planning genocide in Montenegro if it seceded. If it chose not to face a similar fate to the Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians, not to mention the Croatians butchered in Krajina and Western Slavonia.
I don't think the Serbs are a race of butchers. Milosevic was a butcher though. He is now in the Hague and I hope he rots in jail. A true monster.
I agree that what happened to the Serbs in WW2 was also monstrous and I feel the same way towards those who committed that genocide.
Human rights are not an internal affair as far as I am concerned. Commit genocide and you get what you deserve (or you should). Hope Putin ends up in the Hague one day. Invite him to some conference and then arrest him.
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
Oisleep, I am trying to understand your position, yes I did know about the abuses of the Serbian people in WWII & how the serbs suffered at the hands of the catholic/muslim's of Croatia & Bosnia. But that still does not make the Serbian aggression of the 1990's any more right. I did agree that the EU/NATO should have intervened in the Yougoslav civil war & I also think that NATO should have committed ground forces earlier. The Srebenica massacre was a low point of European policy failure & if I was one of the Dutch forces in Srebencia I would hang my head in shame. Yes I do realise that there were attrocities on all sides during the Yugoslav civil war, but it was Serbia who was the agressor, using the nazi excuse of assualts on the Serbian people to justify Serbian aggression. The UN proved all but useless, with ground forces commanders having to put all orders via the UN, usually non-millitary persons who then would decide to contact NATO airforces for support. I have spoken to British forces who served in Yugoslavia at the time & their frustration at having to stand back & watch a bunch of murders (Croat, Serb & Bosnian), who they could have taken out with easy, go about freely knowing they could not be touched was evident. The Yugoslav civil war was a nadir in European relations & has indirectly lead to the US policy of going it alone, we see today.
can you direct me to the posts where i say that any kind of serbian aggression was right andy the don?
this is the thing, anytime someone posts something trying to get some balance in the whole affair the accusations of serbian (elite) apologist comes up quick as you like, and then instantly glaze over the actual issue, i.e. the right of normal serbian people to receive some form of recognition for their suffering, not the current demonisation that goes on at the moment
my position, which i posted on the srebenica thread is
my take on srebinica is that it was one of many henious, disgraceful crimes committed in ex-yugo, don't think i'm an apologist for what happened there as i'm not, but i'd like to also see the families of the 3,000 serbs who were also killed in that region in the early 90's get justice or at least aknowledgement that they too suffered, ditto the serbs who had lived in the krajina for 500 years before clinton decided it was time for them to move, i'd like the media to recognise there are good serbs and bad serbs, good croats and bad croats, good bosniaks and bad bosniaks, but no such things as good nations or bad nations
this is the thing, anytime someone posts something trying to get some balance in the whole affair the accusations of serbian (elite) apologist comes up quick as you like, and then instantly glaze over the actual issue, i.e. the right of normal serbian people to receive some form of recognition for their suffering, not the current demonisation that goes on at the moment
my position, which i posted on the srebenica thread is
my take on srebinica is that it was one of many henious, disgraceful crimes committed in ex-yugo, don't think i'm an apologist for what happened there as i'm not, but i'd like to also see the families of the 3,000 serbs who were also killed in that region in the early 90's get justice or at least aknowledgement that they too suffered, ditto the serbs who had lived in the krajina for 500 years before clinton decided it was time for them to move, i'd like the media to recognise there are good serbs and bad serbs, good croats and bad croats, good bosniaks and bad bosniaks, but no such things as good nations or bad nations
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
oisleep said:
I never stated that you think that the Serbian aggression was right. But the Serbs under the leadership of Milosovic & Serbian nationalists were the aggressors. A fact which some Serbs do not recognize today. They had the rump of the Yugoslav army together with any heavy weapons. The sad thing about the whole breakup of Yugoslavia was that it did not have to occur. I think that Germany was to quick to recognize Slovenia & that gave other former Yugoslav states hopes that they may be recognized by Western Europe. The Yugoslav civil war also had a factor in militant Islam which we see today. With Muslims viewing the ethnic cleansing of fellow Muslims from Yugoslavia. This IMO lead more to the current extremism throughout the European Muslim population than Chechnya, which although occurred the same time, did not happen under the glare of TV cameras.
Andy the Don said:
We seem to be going around in circles. I think oisleep has focussed on the unwarranted demonisation of whole peoples rather than embarking on attributing blame for the aggression, as well as highlighting the shabby treatment of Serbs collectively at the hands of the media.
Andy the Don said:
some "british" people still think it was right that they were colonisers and the empire was a good thing
some german people still think hitler & nazi's were a good thing
some "soviet"/russian people stil think stalin was a good thing (sorry ern)
some spanish people still think Franco was god
some Italians still rever Mussolini
some japanese still think their behaviour in the 30's & 40's was a good thing
some americans still believe that blacks should still be slaves
some, some some - are "some" people a good enough justification to not aknowledge the horrors that "most" of a nation had to (and clearly still are) endure at the hands of a fanatical bunch of scum nationalists on all sides?
i'm off on holiday now, so don't have time to respond to the other bits of your post, although i broadly concur with them
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
nino_savatte said:
Nino, Ive lost count of the number of stories and e-mails Ive forwarded on to the BBC and have had just one reply. The ridiculous thing is they have a page specifically for sending suggested news stories on their web site. Its about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Barking_Mad said:
Aye, for a public service broadcaster they seem to have the utmost contempt for those they purport to serve.
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
oisleep said:
Have a good one.. going anywhere nice.
Postacards always appreciated..
EuroDude2006
New Member
I remember this but I felt at the time - and continue to - and I believe events then vindicate me - that the Serbs wouldn't have agreed to a ceasefire until the Croatian offensive in Bosnia - which of course came after Krajina. At the time I felt on the Krajina, that the Serbs were getting a taste of their own medicine. They expelled millions in Bosnia and Croatia, and now the same was happening to them. The horrendous scenes such as the Muslims in the Omarska concentration camp, as well as the truly unbelievable Screbrenica massacre of 8,000 Muslim men and boys, had made me very emotional in my thinking on this.
In hindsight, while holding to the above, I accept that many innocent Serbs from Krajina were expelled by the Croats. They should be allowed to return and let bygones be bygones. I recognise that genocide was committed against the Serbs in WW2. I am not denying that. I suppose the most recent events tend to leave the greatest mark on one's mind when assessing a country, though.
EuroDude2006 said:
why assess a country as bad or good in the first place though, so because "only" 3,000 serbs were killed in an around the srebenica area from 92-95 and 8000 muslims were killed in the srebenica massacre, then all serbia must be demonised
At least the families of the 8,000 muslims who were murdered have full recognition of what happened, memorial services etc. etc.. ask anyone on the street in the UK how many muslims were killed in srebenica and they would probably tell you 8,000, ask them how many serbs were killed there in the run up to the srebenica massacre, do you think they would know it was in the region of 3,000? i bet they wouldn't as it doesn't fit the nice black & white representation of the conflict
that is pathetic, pawns in the fucking game that's all. So why don't you see the murder of 8000 muslims by serbs as muslims getting a taste of their own medicine for murdering 3000 serbs in the srebenica region between 92-95 in the run up to the muslim massacre? why does it work one way round but not the other, you can't analyse things like that
mentalchik
"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit."
Hang on, my ex-inlaws family were being forcibly (and murdered)expelled from the Krajina before the war started.
Afaik, this started happening as soon as Croatia got recognised.
I remember reading an article in the Independant long before the war, warning of the push from Germany to speedily reconise Croatia and the problems that would ensue if this was not handled correctly.
At the time i found the whole thing incomprehensible whilst listening to my inlaws and watching the whole thing unfold into the horrific mess it became..........
Their parents had fled here after the war, one of my ex's grandads was a wanted man, they had fought valiantly against the Nazi's etc (get confused about what happened after, think they fought against the communist take over ?) and he would have been turning in his grave to hear his children bemoaning the demise of Tito.After seeing what happened saying it was better under Soviet rule etc.
The media and the powers that be imo found it conveniant to demonise one side, whilst all were equally nasty, still talking bout ancient grudges, referring to the muslims as 'turks', i.e.referring back to the ottoman empire and stirring into the mess religious hatred, catholic versus protestant. A lot of resentment and hatred of the perceived collusion of the Vatican etc etc etc.....
Run out of words now, its reminded me of how frustrating and sad the whole thing was for my family at the time.
Afaik, this started happening as soon as Croatia got recognised.
I remember reading an article in the Independant long before the war, warning of the push from Germany to speedily reconise Croatia and the problems that would ensue if this was not handled correctly.
At the time i found the whole thing incomprehensible whilst listening to my inlaws and watching the whole thing unfold into the horrific mess it became..........
Their parents had fled here after the war, one of my ex's grandads was a wanted man, they had fought valiantly against the Nazi's etc (get confused about what happened after, think they fought against the communist take over ?) and he would have been turning in his grave to hear his children bemoaning the demise of Tito.After seeing what happened saying it was better under Soviet rule etc.
The media and the powers that be imo found it conveniant to demonise one side, whilst all were equally nasty, still talking bout ancient grudges, referring to the muslims as 'turks', i.e.referring back to the ottoman empire and stirring into the mess religious hatred, catholic versus protestant. A lot of resentment and hatred of the perceived collusion of the Vatican etc etc etc.....
Run out of words now, its reminded me of how frustrating and sad the whole thing was for my family at the time.
Tito wasn't too fond of The Soviet Union. Yugoslavia wasn't under control from Moscow, not like other European Communist governments.
Was your ex's Grandfather a Chetnik fighter? I think they collaborated with the Nazis at one time in order to try and defeat Tito's Partisans, seen as the Communists were the preffered and more promising movement by the Allies and given aid to help get rid of the Axis powers from the Balkans. As for the Ustashe, well that is another story.
Death Marches are one thing, but collaborating with genocidal forces is another.
Yes the Croats were following their own lines of nationalism and it's ugliness, but Serbian nationalists had caused a huge amount of toruble in that region before Croatia went to war. I am not aware of Protestant influence being that big there. More Orthodox and Catholic.
Was your ex's Grandfather a Chetnik fighter? I think they collaborated with the Nazis at one time in order to try and defeat Tito's Partisans, seen as the Communists were the preffered and more promising movement by the Allies and given aid to help get rid of the Axis powers from the Balkans. As for the Ustashe, well that is another story.
Death Marches are one thing, but collaborating with genocidal forces is another.
Yes the Croats were following their own lines of nationalism and it's ugliness, but Serbian nationalists had caused a huge amount of toruble in that region before Croatia went to war. I am not aware of Protestant influence being that big there. More Orthodox and Catholic.
EuroDude2006
New Member
I agree. But 88% of the missing are classified as Muslims, 12% Serbs, and 3% Croats according to recent statistics (I think Lord Ashdown - the administrator of Bosnia - accepted this in a recent interview on Hardtalk on BBC News 24). So let's be clear and say that the Serbian military were by far the biggest ethnic-cleansers in that war. They were emptying entire towns of their non-Serb population. They emptied Srebrenica of its Muslims in a matter of days - either killing them men and boys (as young as 8) - or expelling their women and younger children. That's Beslan many times over. Overall, 250,000 people were killed in that war. Mass graves containing the bodies of Muslims are being discovered all the time.
The Serbian people must accept that their country was responsible for genocide in Bosnia. They have such a bad name because of the terrible crimes of their former President and his cronies Karadicz and Mladic. Mladic is believed to be living in Belgrade. Serbia must hand him over as an act of contrition for its terrible crimes.
EuroDude2006 said:
that makes 103%!
i don't dount those figures, as they relate to those that are still deemed missing, only around 2,000 of the estimated 8,000 muslims massacred at srebenica have been found and identified. This leaves 6,000 "missing" that feeds into those statistics. There have been around 3,000 identified dead serbians who were killed by Nasir Oric and his ilk, in and around the srebenica area prior to the serb slaughter of muslims in 95. As they have been identified, they are not classed as missing and therefore don't appear in those statistics.
as did advancing croats in previously serb villages, advancing muslims in previously croat villages, advancing muslims in previously serb villages..............
i don't deny any of this, it's truly shocking
have you ever been to serbia? do you know how they live, dirt poor country, majority struggling to get by day to day whilst the upper echolens lord it around living off what they have pilfered from the nation. So not only do they have to deal with this, but they have to somehow accept responsibility for, and on behalf ofactions perpatrated by their largely unelected leaders.
Are you a british citizen? Do you accept responsiblilty for the crimes currently being committed against the Iraqi people by our leaders, the 100,000 who have been killled there in the last couple of years? I don't
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