Western Media Ignores Serb US Memorials of Jasenovac

[Poi E]

Yes, certain people like Gotovina are held in high regard in parts of Croatia. I suppose it all depends on how much influence the EU thinks Serbia Mont has on the Republika Srpska, the area that probably contains most of the remaining wanted men on the Tribunal's list.

I keep in touch with a former colleague who is in the diplomatic corp for a European country, and he recently was engaged in business in s. Serbia. He painted a rather dire picture of entrenched nationalism, no doubt brought about by the fact that little is being done to assist these areas and the people within them. Seems that the same mistakes are being made again, abandoning parts of ex-Yugoslavia to their fate. All the damn press has ever achieved is to paint a picture of other-wordliness in this part of the Balkans, all this ancient ethnic hatred shit.

Edit: given the recent tender rapproachment between Croatia and Serbia, it makes me wonder why the EU isn't really saying to all of the former nations of ex-Yugo (bar Slovenia, naturally): increase your ties with each other, cooperate on law enforcement. border control etc. Effectively laying the groundwork for a de facto confederation. The de jure will come with EU admission. Surely increasing the functioning of civil society should be the aim, rather than a simplistic carrot and stick approach focussing on countries individually? If Croatia and Serbia are stable, so will Bosnia be. And Macedonia and Kosovo. And Montengero can pretend to be a wholly-sovereign country Like a reverse of the Tudjman-Milosevic Karadjordjevo meeting. I guess I'm being naiive. That's not the aim at all, is it? Cherry picking is the name of the game.

 

[nino_savatte]

Sorry the media like simple stories serb bad croat good .when in fact its serb
croat muslim bad &good .Bit hard to do a story about serbs commerating atrocities commited against them .When the un is still clearing up the mess serb nationlists did this round of yugoslavivan happy familes .Each side was as bad as each other just the serbs got most kills this time .
Dosent make it right just cant see news editor putting this in a papermight make the proles question the offical story .

You still don't get it do you? Tudjman was just a guilty as Milosevic if not more so, yet you accept the line put across by the media. Have you ever read anything on Yugoslavia that doesn't come from the press or TV?

 

[jeff_leigh]

Have you ever read anything on Yugoslavia that doesn't come from the press or TV?

can you give me a couple of pointers nino, cheers

 

[mears]

neither did i, i expect for different reasons though, but if you check the thread title you'll find it's not about that, it's about a fascist death camp in world war 2, so if you can't think of anything logical or rational to add to the conversation, or anything slightly more in depth than your limited bipolar analysis thought process allows you to do so, i'd suggest you'd be better off on a thread that doesn't challenge your analytical capacities quite as much as this one, maybe one of ninjaboys threads for example

No reason for personal insults.

I think you will find the second world war has so many tradgedies its hard for everyone to keep track. Six million dead jews, 20 million dead Russians, Firebombings of Berlin and Tokyo, massive raping by Russian soldiers in Germany, the decimation of Poland, Pearl Harbor, the internment of Japanese Americans, Bombing of London, dead French partisans. You can go on and on.

Under the weight of history this paticular episode was somehow lost, but there is nothing deliberate about it.

I thought it was time for Europe to sort out its own problems. I wanted to see France and Germany take an active role in stopping the slaughter. Maybe I wanted to see if Europe was capable of action in the Balkans without the US. Anyways I didn't support it.

Why didn't you?

 

[TeeJay]

same old, same old media in action, the one sidedness of reporting on serbs and serbia is fuckin attrocious in the west, never ever will do anything to upset the demonised image they created of the serbs (with the help of the US) as baby eating monsters, it's fuckin pathetic

I am not going to defend this but it seems that the typical British persons has a less clear view of the WW2 Eastern front with all the nasty shit and complicated dynamics going on, than the western front, and probably thinks that it is better all round not to take sides in any Balkan conflict or resurrect grievances over p[ast bloodshed, prescisely because it was so bad and current national boarders are so unsettled.

I have heard it clamied that a "well-meaning" germany (w/italy & austria?) helped start the balkans war after unilaterally 'recognising' the then-provinces of slovenia and croatia, which suggests that well-meant support for something can help inflame a conflict just as much as turning a blind eye. The fact that - as someone has already pointed out on this thread - nazi isn't interchangable with german, should make people pause for thought before using 'croat' and 'serb'...

 

[nino_savatte]

can you give me a couple of pointers nino, cheers

There are a few books around but the one that I have is The Truth About Yugoslavia by Fyson, Malapanis and Silberman (Pathfinder Books). I picked it up at Eastside Books in Whitechapel.

Then there are a few sites like these
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/pavelic/
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/pavelic.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/pavelic.html
http://www.usna.edu/Users/history/tucker/hh367/USTASHENDH_files/v3_document.htm

 

[nino_savatte]

No reason for personal insults.

I think you will find the second world war has so many tradgedies its hard for everyone to keep track. Six million dead jews, 20 million dead Russians, Firebombings of Berlin and Tokyo, massive raping by Russian soldiers in Germany, the decimation of Poland, Pearl Harbor, the internment of Japanese Americans, Bombing of London, dead French partisans. You can go on and on.

Under the weight of history this paticular episode was somehow lost, but there is nothing deliberate about it.

I thought it was time for Europe to sort out its own problems. I wanted to see France and Germany take an active role in stopping the slaughter. Maybe I wanted to see if Europe was capable of action in the Balkans without the US. Anyways I didn't support it.

Why didn't you?

How incredibly dismissive. Because you don't know about these atrocities or much less care about what happened, doesn't mean that such incidents should be swept aside or simply ignored because they are uncomfortable to deal with or otherwise upset your perfectly ordered world.

I don't think oisleep was insulting you at all, but then when anyone engages you, you always resort to that line or will use other means to belittle your opponent.

Face it mears, you have nothing to offer because you don't know much about the Balkans apart from what you have been told by your leaders. If I were you I would stay out.

 

[Sorry.]

I think you will find the second world war has so many tradgedies its hard for everyone to keep track. Six million dead jews, 20 million dead Russians, Firebombings of Berlin and Tokyo, massive raping by Russian soldiers in Germany, the decimation of Poland, Pearl Harbor, the internment of Japanese Americans, Bombing of London, dead French partisans. You can go on and on.

Just to note that the death toll at the Jasenovac camp is comparable with almost any other concentration camp of the time and 0.7m people may have died there.

 

[nino_savatte]

The BBC haven't answered my email...why am I not surprised. Perhaps a few more will do the trick.

 

[oisleep]

i've sent them a few, not just about this, but they never answered any of them

 

[Idris2002]

Back in the 80s I remember Eamonn McCann arguing that the Medjugorje visions of the BVM were a front for the revival of Croatian nationalism/fascism.

Then years later in Asmara I saw Tudjman's funeral on CNN. I'm not joking when I say they made him sound as if he was Gandhi or Mandela.

Btw, can anyone recommend a good book about the Jasenovac camp and related issues.

And am I imagining things or did the Italian fascists have some concentration camps in occupied Yugoslavia during the war?

 

[Random]

This is good:

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/18/arts/18ARTS.html?ex=1115697600&en=36c3397ba5ac2cf7&ei=5070

 

[oisleep]

Back in the 80s I remember Eamonn McCann arguing that the Medjugorje visions of the BVM were a front for the revival of Croatian nationalism/fascism.

It was amazing that this place was totally untouched throughout the whole war, places nearby where totally obliterated, all the locals took it as further proof of the holiness of the place, but it appears to be that all three sides recognised the earnings potential of it for tourism in the future and, either explicitly or implicitly, agreed not to touch it.

 

[mentalchik]

Who is they? The villagers defending themselves against the murderous onslaught of muslim Nasir Oric and his troops who struck out of Srebrenica whilst it was being mercilessly bombarded by other Serbs? The Serbs who were executed trying to defend their Muslim neighbours when the first attack was made against Bosnia by football fans turned paramilitaries in Bijeljina in 1992? Perhaps the Serbs who fought with Bosnian and Croatian forces against Serb encirclement in Sarajevo? Or the Muslims who fought with Serb forces against the Army of BiH around Bihac?

Or maybe the serbs living in the Krajina,Croatia (my ex-inlaws family)that not long after push to recognise an independant Croatia were forcibly made to leave their homes, where they had lived for generations.............an aunty ran from her home in her nightie whilst her husband was burnt alive in his house !


There was a lot of wrong done from all sides in that war, but lots of stuff was never aired in our media and it was much simpler and suited the powers that be to demonise certain groups !

 

[oisleep]

Or maybe the serbs living in the Krajina,Croatia (my ex-inlaws family)that not long after push to recognise an independant Croatia were forcibly made to leave their homes, where they had lived for generations.............an aunty ran from her home in her nightie whilst her husband was burnt alive in his house !


There was a lot of wrong done from all sides in that war, but lots of stuff was never aired in our media and it was much simpler and suited the powers that be to demonise certain groups !

and the expulsion of those serbs from krajina during operation storm(where they had lived for more than 500 years) was aided by the US in a number of ways, i posted this a few weeks ago on another thread about that attrocity.the us are nervous as fuck about the croat generals involved been brought to trial in the hague, in case more about their help in this ethnic cleansing comes out, they are doing all they can to delay the trial of one of them already

it was not only numerical superiority that favoured the croats. It was a military expertise that could only have been derived from their increasingly congenial relationship with the United States - page 357

Colonel Leslie, of the UN garrison in Knin, recognised the strategy immediately:-

"It was a textbook operation, though not a JNA textbook, Whoever wrote the plan of attach could have gone to any NATO staff college in North America or Western Europe and scored an A-plus - page 357

NATO was on their side to. In fact during operation storm, on August 4, NATO warplanes bombarded Serb Communication systems....NATO airpower, in effect, joined forces with teh croatian army in support of operation storm - page 360

Unlike 1991 Croatia was now a well-armed power waiting for the right time to strike. The west had turned a blind eye to the arming of Croatia....in contravention of the UN arms embargo on the former Yugoslavia - page 300

not a jot of this reported in the press though!

 

[Poi E]

I'm not sure about the press in the UK, but in NZ we received fairly comprehensive coverage of Storm, including the involvement of the US military. The involvement of the US in Operation Flash in E. Slavonia in May 1995 was also documented. Srebrenica gave the perfect cover in the press for Storm (Serbs bad!), even though it was planned well in advance of Srebrenica in July 1995.

Storm really formed part of an end game devised by the US/NATO that started with the Washington accords between the government of BiH and the Croatian government/forces of Herzegovina in 1994, creating the Federation of BiH. From that moment on, military supplies started to get through to muslim forces in c. Bosnia, the vicious war there ceased, and eventually the Croat/muslim Bosnians were able to move with lightening speed in 1995 as the refugees from Krajina spilled through into Bosnia and on to Serbia, retaking about 25% of the area of Bosnia. Many muslims think that Srebrenica was sacrificed by the government in Sarajevo as they knew that in any settlement the area along the Drina would be part of a Serb area, given how genocidally effective Serb forces had been there.

I spoke to a young guy in Travnik a few years ago, and he told me of the surprise that they all got in that beleaguered town when one day several anonymous military helicopters turned up out of the blue in 1994 and spat forth a bunch of cigar chomping American mercenaries who started arranging nightflights to observe Serb positions and to advise local forces. About that time the attackes from Vlasic (Croat) also stopped. Strange to think of the odd Afghan mujahadeen fighting under orders from Americans. Although, they may have known each other from years before.

No thanks to Milosevic as the Krajina refugees turned up in Serbia. He regarded them as an embarassment. Serbian people extended their renowned generosity. I understand that some are moving back. Hopefully the sahovnica will no longer dominate the Krajina at some point in the future...

 

[oisleep]

also noticed that the satellite pictures of the massacre at srebinica were not released by the US until the start of operation storm, this created a perfect media diversion away from what was happening in krajina

 

[mears]

also noticed that the satellite pictures of the massacre at srebinica were not released by the US until the start of operation storm, this created a perfect media diversion away from what was happening in krajina

Why didn't you support NATO's intervention in the former Yugoslavia?

 

[oisleep]

i don't support NATO, so ergo i can't support anything that they do, i fail to see the relevance of that however on this thread, which is about fascist concentration camps and the subsequent US collusion with the next generation of croatian fascists who perpetuated another bout of ethnic cleansing

 

[mears]

i don't support NATO, so ergo i can't support anything that they do, i fail to see the relevance of that however on this thread, which is about fascist concentration camps and the subsequent US collusion with the next generation of croatian fascists who perpetuated another bout of ethnic cleansing

Solid explanation.

The US is colluding with Croation fascists in Croatia?

Shit, didn't hear about that

 

[oisleep]

read some books from time to time

 

[nino_savatte]

i don't support NATO, so ergo i can't support anything that they do, i fail to see the relevance of that however on this thread, which is about fascist concentration camps and the subsequent US collusion with the next generation of croatian fascists who perpetuated another bout of ethnic cleansing

This is mears' attempt to derail the thread. The fact that the Ustashe killed thousands in their death camp is of no interest to him. He also seem content to ignore the fact that the Ustashe spirited out of Europe to America. Mears has accepted the constructed universe of the Manichaen: Serbs = evil and Croats/Bosniaks = good.

 

[mears]

read some books from time to time

You should not make shit up about Croatian Facists and the US, it make you look dumb.

And doesn't the EU have good relations with Croatia these days?

Is everyone colluding with the facists?

 

[mears]

read some books from time to time

You should not make shit up about Croatian Facists and the US, it makes you look dumb.

And doesn't the EU have good relations with Croatia these days?

Is everyone colluding with the facists?

 

[nino_savatte]

More about the Ustashe: in 1975 they planted a bomb at La Guardia airport, while this was 30 years ago this does not mean the Ustashe are quiet - far from it.

1975: A bomb explodes in a storage locker in New York's LaGuardia Airport, killing 11 and injuring 75 people. The attack has long been attributed by the police and investigative journalists to the Ustase.

1976: Four Ustase hijack an American TW plane. One police officer is killed. One of the co-conspirators will in the 1990s be exposed by the New York Times' David Binder as an employee at the Croatian embassy in Washington.

1978: Two Croats are killed and scores wounded across the United States as Ustase begin intimidating and extorting "donations" from Croatian-Americans. Six members of Maks Luburic's Croatian Resistance Movement will be convicted two years later under the RICO Act statutes for the attempted assassination of the leader of the moderate Croatian Fraternal Union, a journalist and a Catholic priest, as well as more than fifty counts of extortion across the United States.

1980: A bomb is planted in the Statue of Liberty, though no one is injured. All told there have been more than twenty terrorist incidents on US soil attributed to the Ustase in the previous five years alone, and close to a hundred worldwide.

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/timeline/ustasetimeline.html

Funny how all of this was swept under the carpet. It's also interesting how quickly the US recognised the independent state of Croatia, while constructing an image of evil in the Serbs.

 

[Cadmus]

as you seem to be constantly implying it, if you could maybe shed some light on how the present state of croatia relates to fascists? that would be helpful. i think we'd all appreciate that. otherwise, its just a thread on a historical issue which has been resolved with unilateral condemnation, just as any nazi attrocities are.
moreover, it'll give you further reason to continue having a conversation with yourself (and ocassionally oisleep) in this thread.
cheers

 

[nino_savatte]

as you seem to be constantly implying it, if you could maybe shed some light on how the present state of croatia relates to fascists? that would be helpful. i think we'd all appreciate that. otherwise, its just a thread on a historical issue which has been resolved with unilateral condemnation, just as any nazi attrocities are.
moreover, it'll give you further reason to continue having a conversation with yourself (and ocassionally oisleep) in this thread.
cheers

You've missed the point or is it the case that you seek to conflate Pavelic's Independent State of Croatia with the current state for the pointless sake of argument? You need some remedial lessons in reading comprehension if that is what you believe I have said in my post.

 

[Cadmus]

i dont see then what recognition of the present state by the US has to do with either the Jasenovac camp or the nazi movement in WWII.
but dont mind me, u just carry on talking to urself...

 

[nino_savatte]

i dont see then what recognition of the present state by the US has to do with either the Jasenovac camp or the nazi movement in WWII.
but dont mind me, u just carry on talking to urself...

Did you actually read the thread title? Because you don't appear to have taken it in...or is it the case that you are ignoring the thread title for reasons known only to yourself?

Whatever point you are trying to make, it's irrelevant.

 

[oisleep]

it'll give you further reason to continue having a conversation with yourself

no need to be so rude, if you don't like the thread don't look at it, if you do, post something of relevance, don't stand on the sidelines and snipe