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Welsh language protest

ddraig said:
stick your apology
that is well out of order and uncalled for
you can play with dwyer, i'm out
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Ok, well anyway, in case you get back to this thread, I made reasonably clear my understanding at the time of the state of the Welsh language (you liked at least one of the posts btw). It now appears I was at least partially wrong in my assessment of how things were going, which is my main interest in the thread, since in a previous one, which I have not dug up yet, several posters whose views I respect posted some decent content suggesting things were going pretty well, and I believed them (I reference that thread in the 'Taliban' one).

I'm mostly interested in finding out whether I was wrong to do so, to what extent and why.

But anyway, that thread should give a flavour of an answer to your previous questions.
 
phildwyer said:
Basically, most Welsh people have managed to divorce their patriotism from the language. English-speakers are just as Welsh as Welsh-speakers, and they are starting to say so more and more clearly.
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Are you saying there is nothing distinctive to the culture that is rooted in the language? A lot of Welsh speakers seem to think so, and there are little bits of Welsh that kind of get absorbed into the English when you've grown up below the Landsker line which seem to bear that out.

My take on it is that if it is a culturally distinctive form, and if those who are taking part in it make a culture that others will want to join in with, then the language will prosper and continue to evolve (the second bit being something really important in a 'living' and 'lived' language).
 
editor said:
I wish I had been taught Welsh. It is clearly an important - but not essential - part of Welsh identity.
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Was there no option when you were growing up (I believe you support Cardiff City - is that where you went to school?)?
 
8ball said:
Was there no option when you were growing up (I believe you support Cardiff City - is that where you went to school?)?
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It was treated very much as a third rate subject - I think it was just half an hour a week - and in those days, the Englisch schools authority seemed quite keen to kill it off completely.
 
editor said:
It was treated very much as a third rate subject - I think it was just half an hour a week - and in those days, the Englisch schools authority seemed quite keen to kill it off completely.
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Englisch? Is this a pop at our esteemed Germanic overlords? :hmm:

But yeah, the status of the subject was a major factor when I was in school too (other corner of the bottom half of the country).
 
editor said:
It was treated very much as a third rate subject - I think it was just half an hour a week - and in those days, the Englisch schools authority seemed quite keen to kill it off completely.
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My experience was very different.

At both primary and secondary school, the headmasters were proselytizing Welsh speakers. I remember kids being stood up in Assembly at the age of 7 for saying "good morning" instead of "bore da." All the signs around the school were in Welsh and not English, so new kids would mistake the library for the toilet (not unreasonably as it happens but still).

And everyone had to take at least 2 hours of Welsh a week until the age of 14. That was the minimum. I carried on until 16 and took a Welsh O-level--the teaching must have been good because I was basically fluent then, and could talk to Welsh-speakers in my grandparents' Carmarthenshire village.

And most people I know who went to school in Wales at that time say the same. Not sure how to account for the difference from your experience.
 
someone i went to university with was a proud welsh speaker. he was also a proud christian. when he finished his course (phonetics and linguistics) he applied to become a priest and being a proud welsh-speaker completed his form in welsh. so they put him on the welsh-speaking priests' course. while he could cope with conversation his welsh proved inadequate to cope with the intricacies required of trainee ecclesiastics.
 
8ball said:
Are you saying there is nothing distinctive to the culture that is rooted in the language?
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I'm saying that there is not one Welsh culture but several.

My culture is the Anglophone culture of South-East Wales. Welsh speakers have a different culture. Both are equally legitimate, both are equally Welsh.
 
phildwyer said:
You were taught Welsh. You didn't learn it though. Why not? Because there was no need. There's no need today either.
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I was taught Welsh as a very minor subject, much like I was taught English - and not Welsh - history. I had no idea who Owain Glyndwr was until many years later.

Kids growing up in Wales today have a much better understanding of both the importance of the language and the country's history, and I think that's a very good thing. I don't much care what you think on the matter.
 
editor said:
I'm really not much interest in getting involved here, but this is a very, very poor and needlessly unpleasant way to get across whatever point it is your trying to make.
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'Pleasant' has no hope of getting through to some people, though I'll admit gauging the right level of unpleasantness has eluded me this time.
 
phildwyer said:
You were taught Welsh. You didn't learn it though. Why not? Because there was no need. There's no need today either.
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I don't think arguments based on 'need' have much utility here. You could justify slashing and burning until you are down to just one language using that kind of reasoning.
 
Pickman's model said:
someone i went to university with was a proud welsh speaker. he was also a proud christian. when he finished his course (phonetics and linguistics) he applied to become a priest and being a proud welsh-speaker completed his form in welsh. so they put him on the welsh-speaking priests' course. while he could cope with conversation his welsh proved inadequate to cope with the intricacies required of trainee ecclesiastics.
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Two phrases:

"Ie"
"Byddai hynny'n fater eciwmenaidd"
 
8ball said:
People will vote with their tongues on what language they want to speak - now that they have plentiful subsidies for the correct language to speak I'm sure that will help them make the right decision.
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It's always going to be a bit controversial, and as a non Welsh speaker my initial instinct is often resentment at the duplication and often ridiculously tokenistic dualling of language. Then I have to remember that this is really about trying to right a wrong. It is clumsy, it is inefficient and wasteful, but the alternative is to allow the campaign that was waged against the Welsh language, but didn't quite complete its task to win by default by allowing the language and culture it weakened to be given the coup de grace by sheer weight of English and American (remember that English culture is constantly being eroded by US cultural imports) cultures.

I don't think it's right to allow that to happen, no matter that doing so does often come across as clunky.
 
existentialist said:
It's always going to be a bit controversial, and as a non Welsh speaker my initial instinct is often resentment at the duplication and often ridiculously tokenistic dualling of language. Then I have to remember that this is really about trying to right a wrong. It is clumsy, it is inefficient and wasteful, but the alternative is to allow the campaign that was waged against the Welsh language, but didn't quite complete its task to win by default by allowing the language and culture it weakened to be given the coup de grace by sheer weight of English and American (remember that English culture is constantly being eroded by US cultural imports) cultures.

I don't think it's right to allow that to happen, no matter that doing so does often come across as clunky.
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This seems to be implying that there is an ongoing battle where the English are still trying to wipe out Welsh, and it needs to be fought for as an act of defiance. In my experience the English who come to Wales are often very supportive of the language, want their kids to learn, sometimes go to night classes themselves etc.
 
8ball said:
I don't think arguments based on 'need' have much utility here. You could justify slashing and burning until you are down to just one language using that kind of reasoning.
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When I say "need," I don't just mean pragmatic necessity. I mean cultural or social need. There isn't that kind of need for the Welsh language among the 80% of Welsh people whose first language is English.
 
phildwyer said:
When I say "need," I don't just mean pragmatic necessity. I mean cultural or social need. There isn't that kind of need for the Welsh language among the 80% of Welsh people whose first language is English.
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Not sure what you're talking about. What is the 'cultural' or 'social' need for, say, Flemish?
 
8ball said:
Not sure what you're talking about. What is the 'cultural' or 'social' need for, say, Flemish?
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Obviously there's a cultural and social need for any living language, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

The question is this: is there a social or cultural need--or indeed a need of any description--for the Welsh language in Anglophone Wales. In other words, should people speak Welsh just because they live in Wales? A lot of people, e.g. the Editor, would argue that they should. But I disagree with them.
 
phildwyer said:
In other words, should people speak Welsh just because they live in Wales? A lot of people, e.g. the Editor, would argue that they should. But I disagree with them.
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First you talk about 'needs' then you bring 'should' into it.
Are we playing word games again?
 
Last edited:
Welsh lad said:
A decline in the Welsh language and a failure of Welsh Govt. policy.
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the two things aren't necessarily connected ;) successive english governments have failed to teach anyone French despite having hours and hours of it on the curriculum.

not counting regardez la télé
 
Welsh lad said:
A decline in the Welsh language and a failure of Welsh Govt. policy.
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Which policy?

The census data is from 2011 and the current Welsh language policy strategy is a 5-year plan starting in 2012, which looks a lot like the demands of this protest group (though different in some places and the phrasing is a little more wooly).

Are the protesters perhaps inaccurate time travelers who are angrily protesting in order to win a victory in 2012?
 
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