Welsh internal flights
- Thread starter Gromit
- Start date
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
llantwit said:
That's more like it. Maybe we could have our own sustainable, properly developed country rather than copying England. The thing is, even with devolution we won't be allowed to develop that.
The thing is i've been brought up with the idea drummed into my head that Wales is a divided country between north and south in every sense (cultural, economic etc) because those two parts of Wales are literally, physically divided in terms of transport and links.
I want Wales to be one country not dozens of different degrees of 'Welshness'.
If this link can be something other than a motorway then i'd go with it, a high speed rail link for example.
With regards to energy, Wales is a net exporter of energy and has the majority of the UK's wind power. If all the wind farms in Wales were totalled together in terms of energy output, I wonder what percentage of Welsh energy it would amount to? Probably something more significant than alot of European countries. It is vital that Wales has control of it's own energy industries. If there's going to be sustainable development in Wales we have to do it, not sit around waiting for London to solve our problems.
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
editor said:
The first thing Wales needs is the A483 widening for a few miles here and there so you can pass the fucking tourists/tractors/Kronospan lorries....
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
editor said:
He's right, but the stats don't include suicides of rail travellers who, for years, dream of a better future.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
You can't compare Wales to England or Italy. I'm not saying transport links would eliminate the divide, but at least links would enable ordinary people from Caernarfon or Bangor to visit their own capital city.
davesgcr
Reading books
I recall the actual numbers of travellers Cardiff to west of Bangor by train is about 300 a day.Not a huge market - but relevant - small compared to E-W trips to / from England .
Whilst the planes seem to reflect a "token" gesture - there is a much more sustainable plan to speed up the present xx20 2 hourly Cardiff to Holyhead by some line speed and signal improvements north of Newport and by partially redoubling the 17 miles of single line from Wrexham to Chester.Getting the trains to exploit their 100 mph capability makes a difference (albeit with political junketing about calls at smaller stations)
Just a bit better than motorway / air madness I think.
(PS these trains could use a biofuel mix)
Whilst the planes seem to reflect a "token" gesture - there is a much more sustainable plan to speed up the present xx20 2 hourly Cardiff to Holyhead by some line speed and signal improvements north of Newport and by partially redoubling the 17 miles of single line from Wrexham to Chester.Getting the trains to exploit their 100 mph capability makes a difference (albeit with political junketing about calls at smaller stations)
Just a bit better than motorway / air madness I think.
(PS these trains could use a biofuel mix)
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
One thing that keeps popping up in my head is 'other countries don't bother with the environment, they just exploit it and reap the rewards, why can't we?'
I know it's a shallow point, but the fact is, if Wales leads the way in sustainable transport development and doesn't bother building motorways, nobody is going to praise us for it. We already have a renewable energy capacity that is more advanced than most comparable countries, but nobody considers this a big deal. We're one of the few countries in the European Union that is ruling private finance out of the health sector (I can't think of many others, Scotland, France, maybe some of the Scandinavian countries, Germany to an extent?), nobody cares (although maybe when this gets implemented across the board excitement will pick up).
Re-nationalising the railways is not a fantasy or Chavez style idea either. Labour talked about the idea recently and the unions generally support it. It could be done and I think should be done eventually in Wales. The political will would be easy to find in Wales to renationalise the railways and like Llantwit says, although it's considered a crazy idea in England it's more realistic here.
I know it's a shallow point, but the fact is, if Wales leads the way in sustainable transport development and doesn't bother building motorways, nobody is going to praise us for it. We already have a renewable energy capacity that is more advanced than most comparable countries, but nobody considers this a big deal. We're one of the few countries in the European Union that is ruling private finance out of the health sector (I can't think of many others, Scotland, France, maybe some of the Scandinavian countries, Germany to an extent?), nobody cares (although maybe when this gets implemented across the board excitement will pick up).
Re-nationalising the railways is not a fantasy or Chavez style idea either. Labour talked about the idea recently and the unions generally support it. It could be done and I think should be done eventually in Wales. The political will would be easy to find in Wales to renationalise the railways and like Llantwit says, although it's considered a crazy idea in England it's more realistic here.
I don't really understand the idea that others would have to 'praise' us or be 'excited' about to make sustainable transport and energy policies worthwhile. Smacks a bit of a will to impress political masters elsewhere to me LL. What happened to autonomy and self-determination. I would have thought those were two principles we could fairly easily agree on?
And I've got no sympathy whatsoever for the kind of attitude that goes, everyone else is doing it (unbridled, unsustainable, and damaging expansion) so we should too. Firstly it's like fiddling as Rome burns, and secondly, nothing would ever change for the better if everyone thought like this.
And I've got no sympathy whatsoever for the kind of attitude that goes, everyone else is doing it (unbridled, unsustainable, and damaging expansion) so we should too. Firstly it's like fiddling as Rome burns, and secondly, nothing would ever change for the better if everyone thought like this.
Guruchelles
Guru of Nothing
I don't understand the more roads creates more cars argument. Surely there have been other factors since 1980 (an increase in two-worker households springs to mind) that have lead to more cars being bought and used rather than simply people spotting an empty stretch of road and heading to the car dealer with their debit card so that they can fill it. 
Gromit
International Man of Misery
Guruchelles said:I don't understand the more roads creates more cars argument. Surely there have been other factors since 1980 (an increase in two-worker households springs to mind) that have lead to more cars being bought and used rather than simply people spotting an empty stretch of road and heading to the car dealer with their debit card so that they can fill it.
I think the increase is due to:
Out of town shopping
Poor and expensive public transport
A large reduction in car prices – Britain used to get seriously ripped off as us suckers are often prepared to pay more for stuff than our neighbours. Strong global competition from Asia has helped here. You couldn’t get a brand new car for £7k like you can now (even though £7k was worth more back then).
That's because that's not the argument. That would be too simplistic. It's not as if more roads magically create more cars, or that lemming-like we buy cars to fill all the available roadspace. There's more to it than that, and Marius has named a few of the interconnectinng reasons for more car use, but the fact that more roads have been built is a massive reason why we've got more cars now than ever before.Guruchelles said:I don't understand the more roads creates more cars argument. Surely there have been other factors since 1980 (an increase in two-worker households springs to mind) that have lead to more cars being bought and used rather than simply people spotting an empty stretch of road and heading to the car dealer with their debit card so that they can fill it.
It's a supply and demend, thing to an extent. But it's also linked in to loads of other factors. Roads are often built to allow easy access to out of town shopping centres, etc. In that case capitalist over-development has gone hand in hand with road building. Another factor is the combined and disproportionate power of the road-building industry, the car-building industry and the petrochemical industry pushing for more roads, more private car use, more unsustainable consumption of petrol, and consequently more wonga for a small bunch of people.
It's presented as the natural course of 'development', but actually it's far from natural - it's highly planned. It's also presented as 'what people want', but people were never presented with any real alternatives, so it's no surprise that there have been calls for more roads for ages now. It seems the logical thing to call for under the circumstances.
We could have planned things very differently, and if we did we'd have very different transport use in this country at the moment. One way things could have been planned differently is for governments to have used the vast sums of our money they've spent on roads on developing shit-hot public transport. If this had been done there'd be far less cars on the roads as there'd be no need for them.
Guruchelles
Guru of Nothing
I just can't help thinking that no matter how "shit hot" public transport was, if there were enough buses running in enough areas, and at frequent enough times to get myself and my children to where we needed to be, when we needed to be there with any level of convenience then there'd be so many of the damn things running that they would be unenvironmental too.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
Supporters of public transport are right in some respects but forget that it also depends on the location.
The trams in Amsterdam are very effective because Amsterdam is build like the hub of a wheel.
In Cardiff however public transport is hindered greatly by a city layout that doesn't lend itself to public transport. City planners were extremely shortsighted which resulted in few main arturies, most of them narrow and as a result all buses head into the centre and head back out again to get anywhere. There are very few circular routes and no hubs.
To have a decent transit system in Cardiff we'd need to knock down half the city and start again
The trams in Amsterdam are very effective because Amsterdam is build like the hub of a wheel.
In Cardiff however public transport is hindered greatly by a city layout that doesn't lend itself to public transport. City planners were extremely shortsighted which resulted in few main arturies, most of them narrow and as a result all buses head into the centre and head back out again to get anywhere. There are very few circular routes and no hubs.
To have a decent transit system in Cardiff we'd need to knock down half the city and start again
I don't think so (surprise, surprise).
The town hasn't altered significantly since it actually had a trolley bus and tram system, for instance. Same big wide thoroughfares, for example. Plus, the town's an ideal size for a good tram system. No reason tram lines couldn't run: down Lloyd George avenue to the bay; along Newport Road and up Rhymney Hill; Along Castle St, Wellington St, and Landsdowne Rd, and Cowbridge Rd West or grand Avenue to cover Ely and Canton; Up Cathedral Rd and StationRd to cover Pontcanna; and Llandaff North and Caerphilly Rd to cover Heath. I think there also used to be a tram going down Crwys Rd, Witchurch Rd, and City Rd.
You do that alongside a congestion charge on cars, cheap park and ride, and increased car-parking charges in the centre it'd be cool. There'd be less cars, a good public transport option, and more space on the roads to cycle if you want to. This is a wet dream, though, and would be expensive. But what a legacy for some aspiring politician/mayor! I would settle for cheaper, more reliable buses at the mo, though, I must admit.
At the moment they're increasing car parking charges without offering an alternative, which sucks.
The town hasn't altered significantly since it actually had a trolley bus and tram system, for instance. Same big wide thoroughfares, for example. Plus, the town's an ideal size for a good tram system. No reason tram lines couldn't run: down Lloyd George avenue to the bay; along Newport Road and up Rhymney Hill; Along Castle St, Wellington St, and Landsdowne Rd, and Cowbridge Rd West or grand Avenue to cover Ely and Canton; Up Cathedral Rd and StationRd to cover Pontcanna; and Llandaff North and Caerphilly Rd to cover Heath. I think there also used to be a tram going down Crwys Rd, Witchurch Rd, and City Rd.
You do that alongside a congestion charge on cars, cheap park and ride, and increased car-parking charges in the centre it'd be cool. There'd be less cars, a good public transport option, and more space on the roads to cycle if you want to. This is a wet dream, though, and would be expensive. But what a legacy for some aspiring politician/mayor! I would settle for cheaper, more reliable buses at the mo, though, I must admit.
At the moment they're increasing car parking charges without offering an alternative, which sucks.
editor said:
No, the house in Wales is my permanent home I just rent in Camberwell for work. My wife and cat live in North Wales full time. And the locals think I'm cool because I don't have an English accent and my wife is a Welsh speaker. Village life is all about the politics.
I'd love to be up in NoWa full time but the suit and tie jobs are all down in the City.
You're a happy bastard aren't you.Marius said:
I've read an article recently about Cardiff being exactly the right population size for a tram network, and the roads being plenty wide enough. Can't bloody remember where though, sorry.
This guy seems to think we can learn from transport policy in Baden Wuertemburg in Southern Germany (not the artile I'm thinking of, though):
http://www.iwa.org.uk/publications/pdfs/charvie.pdf
Scroll downto the last few paras for his opinion on cardiff and trams.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
llantwit said:
No you have me all wrong. I am in fact a cynical pesimistic cunt.
Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a effecient tram system in Cardiff.
I'm no expert, it could work, I just can't personally see it working.
Its been proposed more times than I can remember but never seems to happen. If it was that viable surely they'd have followed through with those proposals by now. Especially as reports have appeared in the press about us being more congested than London.
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