Welsh internal flights

[zog]

Rarely for low income people.

It's cheaper to fly to london than get the train from here. In fact it's cheaper to fly most places in europe than get the train to london.

I'd imagine the cost of flying to North Wales is comparable to getting the train and having suffered that journey by rail a couple of times it would be a mite easier, quicker and more comfortable.

 

[editor]

It's cheaper to fly to london than get the train from here. In fact it's cheaper to fly most places in europe than get the train to london.

I'd imagine the cost of flying to North Wales is comparable to getting the train and having suffered that journey by rail a couple of times it would be a mite easier, quicker and more comfortable.

Yes, but people on low incomes don't tend to flit around the UK or jet over to Europe on awayday breaks or business trips, do they?

 

[zog]

Yes, but people on low incomes don't tend to flit around the UK or jet over to Europe on awayday breaks or business trips, do they?

but they may want to visit North Wales so they can feel better about their own situation.

 

[lewislewis]

Look there needs to be a bloody motorway connecting north and south Wales. I would probably not get the chance to use it, I am not a driver, and yes it causes the environmental damage but that is besides the point. The argument about climate change if used in this way will keep Wales down forever. I'm sorry but I want a better life and I want to maybe visit the mountain ranges of my own country once in a while. It isn't my fault or the people of Caernarfon's fault that China is devastating the global environment.

England has a massive network of roads as Marius suggested, yet we aren't allowed one because it'd be bad for the environment?

 

[lewislewis]

Yes, but people on low incomes don't tend to flit around the UK or jet over to Europe on awayday breaks or business trips, do they?

Well actually alot of people on low incomes do, think about all the cheap flights to Europe for holidays, think about the flights to Poland used by the migrant workers (Who don't exactly have thousands to splash around). I'm also working-class and on a low income but managed to fly to Europe twice this year, it's only like £30 return to Spain.

 

[llantwit]

Look there needs to be a bloody motorway connecting north and south Wales. I would probably not get the chance to use it, I am not a driver, and yes it causes the environmental damage but that is besides the point. The argument about climate change if used in this way will keep Wales down forever. I'm sorry but I want a better life and I want to maybe visit the mountain ranges of my own country once in a while. It isn't my fault or the people of Caernarfon's fault that China is devastating the global environment.

England has a massive network of roads as Marius suggested, yet we aren't allowed one because it'd be bad for the environment?

Did you read the thread?
Climate change is a massive issue when it comes to road building, but the most effective argument is that building more roads doesn't cut congestion... it creates it.
What's wrong with a high-speed rail link?
Does your vision of a truly independent Wales not run to independence from the UK's failed transport policies?

 

[lewislewis]

Of course and I believe in sustainable development and renewable energy. Sweden is aiming to convert all of it's electricity to renewable sources by 2020. To have the resources to do this Sweden built a thriving economy with a motorway network linking the most remote parts of Sweden with each other.
I would also support a high-speed rail link, I would say that's essential especially as we want to move people out of cars onto trains.
You cannot develop a proper transport policy for Wales (a sustainable one) if the country is divided, and the economy is crap, and we're not getting much tax revenue from commerce etc!

Edit- Welsh internal flights are pretty popular and are part of the overall aim of improving Wales, we cannot have a green economy without any funds to develop it.

 

[llantwit]

Your green talk sounds like just that. Talk.
You can't argue for a sustainable economy with one breath and then talk about the need for a fuck off big new road down the middle of Wales with another.
It's a massive contradiction.
You say you want to encourage people out of their cars, but also that you have to build a motorway? That's a novel strategy.

 

[llantwit]

Edit- Welsh internal flights are pretty popular and are part of the overall aim of improving Wales, we cannot have a green economy without any funds to develop it.

Improving Wales for who? Won't matter a fuck if most of it's underwater.
A truly green economy has no place for short-haul flights.

 

[Karac]

Your green talk sounds like just that. Talk.
You can't argue for a sustainable economy with one breath and then talk about the need for a fuck off big new road down the middle of Wales with another.
It's a massive contradiction.
You say you want to encourage people out of their cars, but also that you have to build a motorway? That's a novel strategy.

Its a massive contradiction-but the lack of transport between North and South Wales is a massive contradiction
Though id probably go with a revamping of Rail networks and "possibly" a dual carriageway between Cardiff and Bangor-"if" it was environmentally sound

 

[MrFalafel]

Blimey, you sure get around. Four days in Camberwell, and then you're up in Anglesey and then before you know it - you're in Cardiff!

Yep. Live in NoWa, work in London. 5 days a week in Camberwell with 2 days a week in a small village along the North Wales coast. And sometimes on the weekends I travel. Great life, innit?

 

[MrFalafel]

Rarely for low income people.

Bangor to Cardiff on the train = £29
Angelsey to Cardiff on the plane = £35

And since you're on the train for 4 hours, you'll wind up spending £6 on tea, beers and crisps.

 

[MrFalafel]

Wales has the highest CO2 emissions in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6932667.stm, but the First Minister, Rhodri Morgan thinks that clmate change could be good for tourism to Wales! And totally opposes the Assembly setting binding targets to cut emissions in Wales by 3% every year

Carbon Offsetting is scientifically dubious.

I agree that roads and cars are a big problem. Hence I mentioned slashing train and bus fares in order to facilitate a transition away from private motoring towards public transport (instead under New Labour train and bus fares have rocketed while the cost of private motoring has gone down).

A good comment by Monbiot on another roadbuilding programme in Wales:






Welsh Energy Plan has been savaged by George Monbiot:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6696915.stm

I like the idea but who would pay for these slashed rail fares? Are you suggesting that taxes be raised to subsidise privately owned rail services?

And does the CO2 emissions you speak of take into account the huge amount of wind generated electricity that Wales pumps back into the national grid?

 

[MrFalafel]

It's cheaper to fly to london than get the train from here. In fact it's cheaper to fly most places in europe than get the train to london.

I'd imagine the cost of flying to North Wales is comparable to getting the train and having suffered that journey by rail a couple of times it would be a mite easier, quicker and more comfortable.

You can't fly to London from North Wales. And if you plan in right, you can get a 3 hour direct train that is actually very comfortable and only costs about £60 return. I understand NoWa trains are subsidised, hence the low fares.

 

[Gromit]

and "possibly" a dual carriageway between Cardiff and Bangor-"if" it was environmentally sound

Thats a motorway to us welsh. I don't think there is such a thing as a three laned road in Wales.

 

[MrFalafel]

Thats a motorway to us welsh. I don't think there is such a thing as a three laned road in Wales.

A55 is four lanes

A motorway through the valleys would ruin the tourist-friendly 'getting away from it all' aspect. Souping up the existing rail services for faster trains would be the most sensible long term answer.

 

[Gromit]

A55 is four lanes

A motorway through the valleys would ruin the tourist-friendly 'getting away from it all' aspect. Souping up the existing rail services for faster trains would be the most sensible long term answer.

Screw the tourists. I don't want jobs that depend on outsiders turning up and giving us their money. We need self sustainable jobs. More welsh high paid jobs in research etc.

English tourists saying how lovely and unspoilt Wales is fucks me off because the price of that non development has been welsh poverty. Lets not make Wales propserous eh, we'd have no where to go on idylic day trips then.

 

[MrFalafel]

Screw the tourists. I don't want jobs that depend on outsiders turning up and giving us their money. We need self sustainable jobs. More welsh high paid jobs in research etc.

English tourists saying how lovely and unspoilt Wales is fucks me off because the price of that non development has been welsh poverty. Lets not make Wales propserous eh, we'd have no where to go on idylic day trips then.

I disagree. I know a number of people who live wonderful lives in wonderful places all based on the tourist trade. There's nothing wrong with that. And tourism growth in Wales is not the kiss-me-quick rubbish in Rhyl, its the hillwalkers nature lovers that are bring in the money. And in my town, I can't walk down the street without bumping into Spanish, Italian, American and the rest tourist parties who all absolutely love what they are seeing.

And I don't know what you are talking about when it comes to prospertity. Property prices in Wales are incredibly high. Abersoch house prices are on par with London house prices. Welsh landowners are making a fortune and the people catering to well heeled tourists are doing quite well, too.

I would agree more quality jobs are required but not at the expense of building huge industrial parks and ruining what we already benefit immensely from.

 

[llantwit]

I like the idea but who would pay for these slashed rail fares? Are you suggesting that taxes be raised to subsidise privately owned rail services?

I'd suggest we take the railways out of the mess of private ownership we have at the moment and make them accountable again. Profit should not be made from a public service, and forcing companies to be environmentally responsible will never work.
Once that's done massive investment in the railways can be paid for out of the inflated road-building budget, by a complex system of road charging (mainly in the cities), and from taxes (as transport always was paid for).
That we've got to a stage where it's cheaper to fly than to use the trains beggars belief.

 

[llantwit]

I would agree more quality jobs are required but not at the expense of building huge industrial parks and ruining what we already benefit immensely from.

This is spot on. Just because we haven't followed the English example of ill-thought-out planning and unbridled expansion so far (admittedly not through choice) doesn't mean we have to start now.
Wales can start using it's relative lack of crazy, ugly, and unsustainable development to its advantage in thinking of ways to create new forms of development based around a sustainable transport infrastructure and alternative ways of living.
The fact that vast swathes of the country don't loook like the South East of England is surely a good thing. To hold up that bloated, over-populated, over-'developed' mess as an example of what we want would be suicide.

 

[MrFalafel]

I'd suggest we take the railways out of the mess of private ownership we have at the moment and make them accountable again. Profit should not be made from a public service, and forcing companies to be environmentally responsible will never work.
Once that's done massive investment in the railways can be paid for out of the inflated road-building budget, by a complex system of road charging (mainly in the cities), and from taxes (as transport always was paid for).
That we've got to a stage where it's cheaper to fly than to use the trains beggars belief.

I would have to agree with you on this. But its not really going to happen is it? Re-nationalize the railways? Perhaps if we elected Hugo Chavez as PM...

And what really makes me chew bricks is that its cheaper for 4 people in North Wales to share a private car drive into Manchester than it is for 4 people to take the train for the same journey. Thats just madness.

 

[llantwit]

I'm not so sure. In an independent Wales there would be more support for a move like that than in the UK.

 

[Gromit]

This is spot on. Just because we haven't followed the English example of ill-thought-out planning and unbridled expansion so far (admittedly not through choice) doesn't mean we have to start now.
Wales can start using it's relative lack of crazy, ugly, and unsustainable development to its advantage in thinking of ways to create new forms of development based around a sustainable transport infrastructure and alternative ways of living.
The fact that vast swathes of the country don't loook like the South East of England is surely a good thing. To hold up that bloated, over-populated, over-'developed' mess as an example of what we want would be suicide.

There is a lot of truth in that I'll admit.

But having roads a third world country would be ashamed of doesn't help attract high income jobs to Wales.

We don't need to go as mad as the english but we do need to raise our game. Buses use roads too remember. If a bus is stuck in congestion its not a viable means of public transport.

 

[editor]

Bangor to Cardiff on the train = £29
Angelsey to Cardiff on the plane = £35

And since you're on the train for 4 hours, you'll wind up spending £6 on tea, beers and crisps.

You've missed the point. Low income people don't enjoy your jetset/high mobility lifestyle.

Catching an internal flight for such a small journey is unforgivable in my book. And how much does it cost to get to/from the airports anyway? And how long does it take to get to the airports? You'll soon find your precious time advantage being eaten up.

 

[Gromit]

You've missed the point. Low income people don't enjoy your jetset/high mobility lifestyle.

Catching an internal flight for such a small journey is unforgivable in my book. And how much does it cost to get to/from the airports anyway?

How much does the overnight stay in Cardiff costs because it takes too long to get back to North Wales? Can low income people afford that?

Every business trip I've taken to North Wales has had to be overnight stay or else it would be a 17 hour day and I'd be a danger on the roads driving home that tired.

 

[editor]

How much does the overnight stay in Cardiff costs because it takes too long to get back to North Wales? Can low income people afford that?

Err, how many low income people need to be regularly flying back and forth from north Wales to Cardiff? Who do you think uses these kind of short haul flights? Haven't you seen the CAA stats about the demographics of air passengers (posted on the Heathrow thread).

Every business trip I've taken to North Wales has had to be overnight stay or else it would be a 17 hour day and I'd be a danger on the roads driving home that tired.

You could have slept on the train. Or is this your way of proving that you somehow need to take the plane over such a short distance?

 

[Gromit]

Hire car. When I went to N Wales I had to make the most of it and visit as many people across as many sites as possible as I knew I wouldn't be up there for ages afterwards. This was to do health and safety assessments for people with special requirements. If I took public transport only half of them would have got assessed and would have had to suffer until I next went up.

 

[editor]

Hire car. When I went to N Wales I had to make the most of it and visit as many people across as many sites as possible as I knew I wouldn't be up there for ages afterwards. This was to do health and safety assessments for people with special requirements. If I took public transport only half of them would have got assessed and would have had to suffer until I next went up.

You could have enjoyed a relaxing train journey up and hired the car when you got there.

 

[Gromit]

You could have enjoyed a relaxing train journey up and hired the car when you got there.

Its cheaper to just hire the car with our contract than car and train.
I'd still be doing a 15 hour day. Pfft no thank you. So I'd still end up doing over night.

 

[editor]

Its cheaper to just hire the car with our contract than car and train.

That's your choice, but the point being there was an alternative available to you, even if it using it would cause you a relatively minor inconvenience.