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Welsh Elections Thread

Udo Erasmus said:
1/ My comments about the CPB came across a little more shrill and accusatory than I was intending. It was a genuine question. The Communist Party in Wales argue that we mustn't walk away from the Labour Party. They opposed trade unions like the RMT disaffiliating from the Labour Party. They say we need to fight to "reclaim" the Labour Party. They oppose the project of building a left alternatvie to the Labour Party, and attack those who do facour that project. It therefore seems contradictory to stand a whole list of candidates against the Labour Party.

2/ Our position is that trade unions should democratise their political fund. So that instead of the money automatically going to the Labour Party it should be distributed among candidates who support the aims of the union.

The question of disaffiliation is one of strategy and tactics.

3/ A practical question that Neppy wouldn't be able to grasp because he doesn't engage in practice, and therefore cannot be said to be a marxist in any meaningful sense.

4/ In the 1980s, if socialists argued for disaffiliation what would they achieve? They would cut themselves off from most workers, because other than a handful of far left activists this wasn't an issue of any meaning to the bulk of trade union members. In that period fighting for disaffilation might also of strengthened the hand of the right wing, both within wider society and within the trade unions and Labour Party.

5/ In the 21st century things are different. The most politicised and militant trade union members want to sever the link with Labour. Indeed, this is a general mood among all trade union members. Sociological research has shown around 75% of trade union branches are critical of the relation between Labour and affiliated unions. In this context, a trade union breaking with Labour or cutting funding to Labour indicates that union members at the grassroots want to fight back against neo-liberalism.

6/ But answer this? Has the RMT become a weaker union or a stronger union since disaffiliating. The moment it disaffiliated, the RMT, began to recruit far more members. Has severing the link from Labour increased the ability of the union to fight back or strengthened it? I would say it has strengthened it.

7/ The PCS is not affiliated to the Labour Party, yet it has in recent years become one of the more combative of trade unions.
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Udo admits to being shrill! Hopefully he will also admit to lacking even the most cursory knowledge of the workers movement in future if this trend towards honesty is continued. Now lets look at his latest silliness.

1/ Udo asks why the CPB is opposed to unions disaffiliating from Labour. he further claims that the CPB is opposed to building a socialist alternative to Labour. In fact the CPB, and its forerunner the late unlamented CPGB, have long argued that bulding a socialist alternative outside Labour is complimentary to the left building within the Labour Party. Nonsense in my view but well known within the workers movement.

2/ A good answer to be fair. But one developed for the opportunist reason at the time it was adopted a tiny handful of union branches wished to affiliate with the SSP in which the SWP was then embedded. Which they no longer are and neither are the union branches in question. In which case one wonders as to the validity of affiliating to short lived doomed sects as advocated by Udo.

3/ Now I admit that I'm not an 'activist' in the same league as Udo. But unlike Udo I do know that when one is employed that the employers are meant to pay one for one's work. Yet poor Udo chose to work on for nearly two months before his employer decamped without paying him, poor Udo. A formidable workplace militant our Udo we should all listen to his advice very carefully. :rolleyes:

4/ The argument that by advocating dissaffiliation from Labour in the 1980's socialist militants "would cut themselves off from most workers" is idiotic. The simple fact is that then and now most union members had no interest in the question. Something the SWP used to point out quite frequently as I recall. Certainly disaffiliation would have pissed off the minority of active union members, particularly in the blue collar unions, would have been concerned but Udo's remarks only display his gross ignorance of trades unionism. In any case the SWP's policy of steering left and expelling members above, and sometimes at, the level of shop steward isolated us anyway given which dissaffiliation would have simply compounded our ultra-left binge.

As for the argument that dissafiliation would have strengthened the right that remains true today as yesterday if you actually think it through.

5/ Udo's assertions are just plain wrong. Typical of the SWP today he tranmutes a perceived "general mood" into gold. Fools gold given that with only a couple of exceptions not a single union has dissaffiliated from Labour and there are no moves underway for any others to do so. Indeed even the RMT continues to finance Labour MP's.

6/ The RMT began to recruit new members prior to its disaffiliation with Labour. Because under new leaders and new circumstances the membership was more combative. I suspect that not even Udo will be able to produce hard evidence that so much as one worker has joined the RMT as a result of its disaffiliation from Labour.

7/ Again the PCS, and its forerummer the CPSA, has been one of the most combative unions for a long time. As a consequence of conditions in their industry not as a result of not being affiliated to Labour. A daft argument given that most union members are intereted in wages, pensions and conditions and not at all in whether or not the union is affiliated to labour. Something the materialists of the SWP once knew but Udo clearly does not. But then he has never been a trades unionist.
 
Hello Udo and thank you for the sectarian rant:)

To answer your question on the CP's electoral strategy directly, I think you are aware that for many years our perspective has been to build a 'democratic anti-monopoly alliance' leading through a process of mass struggle to the election of a left government based on a Labour, Socialist and Communist majority. Contrary to the approach of the SWP, which if I recall used to call for a Labour vote 'without illusions' and now stands against Labour in its latest front RESPECT, the CP bases its strategy on pragmatic and realistic foundations, given the political situation in the UK at the time, hence the efforts to reclaim Labour as the only serious prospect for working-class advance. Nonetheless, the Communist Party retains its own identity and viewpoint and is standing candidates on the regional lists in Wales in order to project its policies directly to the public.

The CP are highly critical of the current Labour leadership and, as you are no doubt aware, contains a significant minority who favour joining with RESPECT.
With regard to your point about TUs disaffiliating from the Labour Party, the CP does not support this move due to the resultant fragmentation of organised labour and the impact this will have on the attempt to influence the Labour Party. Further disaffiliations will result in arriving at a situation similar to France with their three Union congresses or, worse still, the position of the Trotskyite movement with its three thousand tiny splinter parties.

Finally on China, you misrepresent Rob Griffith's viewpoint as being totally supportive of the current regime. The comment you quote is simply a matter of fact, rather than endorsement. To accurately quote the Party's view on China: "We believe that socialists, progressives and democrats in Britain should adopt a more constructive supportive approach to relations with People's China. Closer links and greater knowledge are the preconditions for engaging in constructive criticism of aspects of China's policies."

One final point Udo, comrade, wouldn't your ire be more purposefully directed at the fascists, Tories or indeed the Government than at another left of Labour party? Or is that not possible for followers of Trotsky?;)
 
militant atheist said:
The CP bases its strategy on pragmatic and realistic foundations...

The CP are highly critical of the current Labour leadership and, as you are no doubt aware, contains a significant minority who favour joining with RESPECT.
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Curious to read the claim that the CPB bases its politics on pragmatism and not on Marxism.

Interesting too that a fraction of the CPB wish to join Respect. And why not given that is has far more in common with the failed strategy of the Popular front than with the Leninist tactic of the United Workers Front as advocated by Trotsky.
 
militant atheist said:
Electoral strategy on pragmatism, politics on Marxism.
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You obviously have no knowledge of Marxism or of any form of philosophy let alone pragmatism. Quite obviously electoral strategy is a field of political struggle and must therefore be based on the theories of Marxism. At least if one is a Marxist!

Rather amusingly it was one of the great figures of the pragmatist school who chaired the Commission of Enquiry which cleared Trotsky of the monstrous charges brought by Stalin. Now of course even the CPB is aware that it was Stalin who was the gravedigger of the revolution and the murderer of Bolshevism. Although at the time it was the forerunner of your organisation which trumpeted and praised Stalin.

It was to John Deweys credit then, that as a supporter of capitalism, that he was able to understand how monstrous were the deeds of Stalin against the worlds workers. I suspect that he would disavow your claim on pragmatism as Marx would, without any doubt, disavow your claim on his ideas. Although you appear to have little knowledge of the ideas of either man.
 
Even more intriguing is the Welsh Christian Party. There is currently a case against them submitted by a Welsh presbyterian minister who argues that threatening people with eternal damnation if they don't vote for you is a breach of the electoral code.

Their main campaign is to get Wales to replace the Dragon (a satanic symbol) on their flag with the cross of St. David.

The leader of the party, George Hargreaves, fulminates against homosexuality. Interestingly, Pastor Hargreaves funds his political party through the £10,000 he gets every month from the royalties of the 80s hit, "So macho" that he wrote. Ironically, this song is often cited as a gay anthem!


So Macho
He’s got to be
So Macho
He’s got to be big and strong enough to turn me on
He’s got to have, big blue eyes
Be able to satisfy
He’s got to be big and strong enough to turn me on.
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Even more intriguing is the Welsh Christian Party. There is currently a case against them submitted by a Welsh presbyterian minister who argues that threatening people with eternal damnation if they don't vote for you is a breach of the electoral code.[/I]
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Given the efforts of your own party, Respect the populist coalition, to enforce the moral standards of a part of its electorate on the rest of the populace why is this a problem for you Udo?

Moreover I note that any decent socialist should as a matter of principle defend the right of the Pastor Hargreaves to spout tripe. Given Udo's habit of spouting tripe I nsuspect that this particular principle will not pose probems for him.
 
neprimerimye said:
Given the efforts of your own party, Respect the populist coalition, to enforce the moral standards of a part of its electorate on the rest of the populace why is this a problem for you Udo?
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Women form around one half of the electorate not part of the electorate, Neppy & I thought as socialists we argued that men and women should unite against sexism & the exploitation and commodification of women?

Also, nobody is arguing that Mr. Hargreaves be banned from expressing his views.
 
Respect Public Meeting!

RESPECT - THE UNITY COALITION
South Wales Central Election Public Meeting
WELFARE NOT WARFARE!
Get up! Get into it! Get involved!

Thursday 5 April at 7.30 pm
Riverside Community Centre
Brunel Street (off Ninian Park Road)
Cardiff

Speakers include -
Councillor Oliur Rahman, Tower Hamlets Respect
One of the youngest councillors in Britain. Oli was a PCS trade union branch secretary prior to election & has earnt a reputation in Tower Hamlets as a mighty fighter for tenants rights and Defend Council Housing campaigner.
Marianne Owens, Wales Regional Vice Chair, PCS (personal capacity)
A workplace militant, Marianne has addressed many picket lines and demonstrations, and recently visited Colombia as part of a solidarity delegation of young trade unionists.
Karen Tyre, Respect candidate, South Wales Central
A lifelong socialist, Karen has been active in many campaigns against war, racism & privatisation from the anti-poll tax movement through to the Stop the War Coalition.

Respect is dedicated to building resistance to neoliberalism in every sphere of society from the ballot box to the workplace, therefore the meeting will include reports from activists from the trade union, anti-racist, anti-war, climate justice & anti-globalisation movements and struggles.

Directions to Community Centre from town:
Head down Wood St. (in front of Bus Station), follow the road past the stadium onto Tudor Street and then onto Ninian Park Road. The community centre is situated on the corner with Brunel Street.

A new, unofficial Respect blog has also been launched by Respect supporters in the Cardiff area:
www.cardiffrespect.blogspot.com

Anybody gainst war, racism, privatisation & climate destabilisation welcome! Refugees are welcome here!
PEOPLE NOT PROFIT!

www.respectcoalition.org​
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Women form around one half of the electorate not part of the electorate, Neppy & I thought as socialists we argued that men and women should unite against sexism & the exploitation and commodification of women?

Also, nobody is arguing that Mr. Hargreaves be banned from expressing his views.
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Poor naive Udo. The section of the electorate that has demanded that lap dancing clubs are shut is not the female part of the electorate. Indeed I'm unaware that women, as such, possess distinct moral standards different to that of the male part of the electorate. But perhaps Udo can enlighten us as to this bizarre suggestion of his?

More to the point is it not the case that the part of the electorate to which Respect has responded in running it's puritanical campaign to close lap dancing clubs is that part of the electorate which tends towards a religiousity unknown to the majority of the poulation. Thank God! :rolleyes:

That such a campaign is now represented by Udo as a struggle against sexism and the commodification of women is farcical. Is Udo not aware that such jobs are, in contrast to most jobs in the so called sex industry, relatively safe and well remunerated? Quite how depriving women of employment, actually they would simply be displaced if Respects anti-sex campaign were to succeed (whichi it will not), furthers the cause of womens liberation evades me.

Although the cause of womens liberation is surely not a matter of concern for those many members, including leading members, of Respect who oppose a womens right to free abortion on demand.

I'm happy to accept Udo's clarification as to his defence of Mr Hargreaves right to spout bollocks and assure Udo that I shall aways do my best to support his, oft exercised, right to talk bollocks.
 
I'm not sure if I agree with you that it will be a prominent feature of a socialist society that there will be clubs where men pay women to lap dance, I prefer to think that in a progressive society, women and sexuality won't be commodities that can be bought and sold on the market place. I also think that there is a particular problem in certain areas of London where there are a proliferation of sex and strip clubs drawing custom from middle class city employees that is not particularly welcome from local working class residents and families who might wish that councils use their planning and licensing powers to stop the huge number of clubs opening in Tower Hamlets. I think Neppy will find a large number of people on the left who would agree that the sudden fashionability and change in social attitudes towards strip clubs and lapdancing clubs doesn't represent the liberation of sexuality but rather a backlash against women and a new sexism.

As you are well aware, Respect has a policy to defend a woman's right to choose. There is one prominent catholic member of Respect, George Galloway MP, who has a reactionary position on this question, but even he has agreed now to abide by the policy unaminously agreed by the 2005 Respect conference & has stated that if there were a vote in parliament he would vote according to Respect policy.
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Neppy given that I have heard that you were expelled twice from the SWP for what could charitably be described as extremely sexist and unacceptable behaviour towards women, .
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Udo....

That is, as you well know, and has been shown here before, bollocks.

Contemptable bollocks.

I was there, you weren't.

So I suggest you retract that.

.
 
chilango said:
Udo....

That is, as you well know, and has been shown here before, bollocks.

Contemptable bollocks.

I was there, you weren't.

So I suggest you retract that.
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Leave the poor boy alone he is to be pitied not pilloried. :rolleyes:
 
Udo Erasmus said:
I'm not sure if I agree with you that it will be a prominent feature of a socialist society that there will be clubs where men pay women to lap dance, I prefer to think that in a progressive society, women and sexuality won't be commodities that can be bought and sold on the market place. I also think that there is a particular problem in certain areas of London where there are a proliferation of sex and strip clubs drawing custom from middle class city employees that is not particularly welcome from local working class residents and families who might wish that councils use their planning and licensing powers to stop the huge number of clubs opening in Tower Hamlets. I think Neppy will find a large number of people on the left who would agree that the sudden fashionability and change in social attitudes towards strip clubs and lapdancing clubs doesn't represent the liberation of sexuality but rather a backlash against women and a new sexism.

As you are well aware, Respect has a policy to defend a woman's right to choose. There is one prominent catholic member of Respect, George Galloway MP, who has a reactionary position on this question, but even he has agreed now to abide by the policy unaminously agreed by the 2005 Respect conference & has stated that if there were a vote in parliament he would vote according to Respect policy.
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More lies Udo. Provide quotes to substantiate your claims as regards my positions. Or else be proven, yet again, a liar.

Moving on I note that your arguments are so much rubbish without any merit. There has been no sudden change in social attitudes with regard to strip joints and so forth. What has developed, quite slowly, is a resurgence in the popularity of such clubs.

A popularity which contrary to your assertion is widerspread among working class me as much as amongst middle class men. Or are you unaware of working class pubs hosting strip shows? Similarly are you unaware of working class men using the services of prostitutes? Frankly I suspect that a callow naif such as your good self most probably is unaware of how real working class men and women live.

Nonetheless I grotesque moralism of Respect in Tower Hamlets reminds me more of Mary Whitehouse and her censorious legions than it does of the Womens Liberation Movement. Although the bigoted clerics you choose to ally with wear different costumes even if they do pray to the same god.

As for Kitty Galloways pledge it means zero given that he knew when giving it that the issue was not going to be raised during the life of the Parliament to which he was elected. More important is the fact that large numbers of Respects membership and electoral base oppose a womans right to choose. In fact they choose not to select those members of Respect who do support that position when selecting candidates for council eletions.
 
Respect's electoral appeal seems limited to constituencies and areas where there are a disproportionate number of Muslims resident. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but means Udo's lot won't gain any support elsewhere, and aren't really furthering the socialist cause the SWP apparently adheres to.
 
lewislewis said:
Respect's electoral appeal seems limited to constituencies and areas where there are a disproportionate number of Muslims resident. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but means Udo's lot won't gain any support elsewhere, and aren't really furthering the socialist cause the SWP apparently adheres to.
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bk007_lg.jpg
endangered_tiger_cover.jpg


Former Plaid Cymru councillor joins Respect
03/04/2007

Neil Sinclair, Local historian, author of several books on the Tiger Bay/Docks area of cardiff, and one time Plaid Cymru councillor, has recently joined the RESPECT Party.

Mr Sinclair has stated that he does not feel any ill will towards his former party, but that he views RESPECT as "part of the resistance"; as it was created out of the anti war movement.

Mr sinclair has long been recognised as a source on the life and times of the Tiger Bay community, and has often been cited in the media. His books include "The Tiger Bay Story", "The Cardiff Bay experience" and "Endangered Tiger; A Community under threat"
 
Karac said:
Latest poll-
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_headline=voters-in-big-swing-to-plaid%2D-says-poll%26method=full%26objectid=18971523%26siteid=50082-name_page.html
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In which case may I call Udo Erasmus to thread, and ask whether he admits the previous poll he posted up (which showed Plaid dropping into 3rd place) was incorrect as I alleged?
Either that or there's been a sudden swing to Plaid in the past week or so lol.

Anyway this is a decent poll, my only disappointment is that Wales will be faced with a bland and toothless Lab-Lib coalition after May 3rd. To have a proper Assembly we need to see it reaching out across Wales, not just Cardiff, and actually making a difference to people's lives. Most people won't even bother to vote and although i'd say do vote, it's unsurprising, because all too often the Assembly seems to reinforce the London-style status quo. Ah well : (
 
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