Well done the BBC

[Azrael]

Of course it's fucking crass, but it's Remembrance Day season, and he scored a point there. His only point.

Presumably the allegation about dadda Straw is true (sonny Straw didn't deny it), and it was obvious that Mr Griffin would use it as ammunition. He should either have got someone else to go on (not a bad idea, regardless) or not played it large about the Second World War and Mr Griffin being a Nazi.

 

[cesare]

See the other thread for my opinions on how Straw behaved. Outdone by the liberals and the tories and all outdone by an arty type. Everytime he started waffling my eyelids grew heavy. He is a joke.

I haven't read the other thread - but I reckon he came out of it worst, Cyclops close second.

 

[Batboy]

The hard core support for the BNP are always going to vote for them however much of a knob Griffin comes across as. I have faith in the British people enough to know that the BNP will never get beyond a marginal representation of votes. Being on question time is not going to enhance the BNP.

The harping on of Hitler and the 1930's is in my view not relevant, things have radically changed since then.

As unpleasant as it may be I personally think the BBC were right to go ahead. The only disappointing thing about question time was that I don't think the politicians laid into Griffin enough. And as others have said Straw was a wimp jerk.

The reason I believe they were right is I firmly believe in freedom of speech. Fascists when in power do not. So there is a real paradox in all of this. We should not repress speech and views however vile they may be. We have laws in place to deal with such things as inciting racial hatred etc and I figure the more Griffin will speak then sooner rather than later he will break the law and can be nicked and he can squirm and squeal like the vile pig he is.

The BNP picked up a lot of votes at recent elections many of those voters were fed up Tory voters who turned to the BNP as a protest vote, I actually had a BNP campaigner come up to me at the last general election and say this. I feel The next general election will be different.

I guess what is difficult for many on U75 is to get their heads around the fact that there needs to be a strong Conservative party whether in power or in opposition in order to keep the far right fascist in the gutter where they belong.

The last 11 years have seen feeble opposition to a government .This is never a good thing and the way things are looking we are going to get another ten year stint of overloaded government and a weak opposition.

 

[cesare]

Presumably the allegation about dadda Straw is true (sonny Straw didn't deny it), and it was obvious that Mr Griffin would use it as ammunition. He should either have got someone else to go on (not a bad idea, regardless) or not played it large about the Second World War and Mr Griffin being a Nazi.

It was a complete non starter getting into that Winston Churchill shit in the first place.

 

[Azrael]

The wrestle over Winnie's long-buried corpse was bizarre. Churchill's views on race and culture, while normal for his time, would get him labelled a racist in a heartbeat today. He'd probably think Mr Griffin was a cheap demagogue, but he'd hardly be applying for a job in the equalities commission. Ahistorical nonsense, all of it. This war nostalgia and the cult of personality that goes with it is long overdue a funeral of its own.

 

[cesare]

One of the things that pissed me off was when they got into the Gateley/Moir thing. Not one of them just sat and said that that Moir/Mail could publish what it wanted but that they had to suck on response to their freedom of speech lol.

I.e. don't suppress the fucking article. Let Moir and the Mail say what they want to say. Say it, Moir/Mail. But whilst you're at it, let's not forget the Mail's fucking history and political inclinations.

None of them pointed that out, Mail off the hook.

 

[cesare]

The wrestle over Winnie's long-buried corpse was bizarre. Churchill's views on race and culture, while normal for his time, would get him labelled a racist in a heartbeat today. He'd probably think Mr Griffin was a cheap demagogue, but he'd hardly be applying for a job in the equalities commission. Ahistorical nonsense, all of it. This war nostalgia and the cult of personality that goes with it is long overdue a funeral of its own.

Blah blah. He was a man of his time etc. Even more reason not to get dragged into that mire, Straw.

 

[Azrael]

I guess what is difficult for many on U75 is to get their heads around the fact that there needs to be a strong Conservative party whether in power or in opposition in order to keep the far right fascist in the gutter where they belong.

Exactly. And not just the Tories. Labour voters are deserting to the BNP as well, which is smart enough to attack free market dogma alongside cultural liberalism. It's a dumping ground for discontent. We need a Labour and a Conservative party that accurately reflect the splits in our country. Right now both have abandoned their constituencies, and Mr Griffin is the result.

It could get a lot scarier. I think Mr Griffin is vastly over-rated by friend and foe alike. His NF past and associations with violent thugs are millstones that'll stop him going much further. I dread to think what happens if we get a real smooth operator in.

 

[Azrael]

Blah blah. He was a man of his time etc. Even more reason not to get dragged into that mire, Straw.

He was. Any of them with guts would've said it's time we let the whole Blitz spirit thing go. Expecting too much, of course.

 

[cesare]

Exactly. And not just the Tories. Labour voters are deserting to the BNP as well, which is smart enough to attack free market dogma alongside cultural liberalism. It's a dumping ground for discontent. We need a Labour and a Conservative party that accurately reflect the splits in our country. Right now both have abandoned their constituencies, and Mr Griffin is the result.

It could get a lot scarier. I think Mr Griffin is vastly over-rated by friend and foe alike. His NF past and associations with violent thugs are millstones that'll stop him going much further. I dread to think what happens if we get a real smooth operator in.

It'd be interesting to find out where the votes come from. Previous non voters or dissenters.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

He got shown up for a lot of people. Maybe U75ers are clued up but a lot of people aren't/give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[toblerone3]

One obvious question is whether as a result of the programme the BNP's vote will go up or down. I don't think anybody who has posted on this thread so far really knows the answer to that. Griffin got a verbal kicking but will that have any traction amongst people who voted BNP.

 

[Fuzzy]

i doubt some of the people who voted BNP were really able to undertand and comprehend the position that Griffin was taking. he tried to come across a moderate, the islamlamist's friend, but he was convincing. trying to make his party look respectable to the masses but still retaining the underside of hate/racism etc. i found it particularly unpleasant that he was just laughing when questions were raised. maybe out fear that he just doesnt have ability or wherewithall to answer the questions posed. if thats the face of the party they really wont get very far.

the debate over the BBC broadcasting him is interesting. whatever he stands for 6% of the license paying british public voted for him. lets think about changing their views and not just the figure head that allows them to manifest their own hateful and racist views.

editted to add, i thought by allowing him on the BBC showed him up to be completly useless and that he hadnt changed and that he and his party still stood for the same things.

 

[Barry Kade]

Here is my response:

Question Time: The Establishment Mugs Nick Griffin – But Only So They Can Steal His Political Clothes!

http://barrykade.wordpress.com/2009...ffin-so-they-can-steal-his-political-clothes/

I've put it on blog.

To sum up my argument -

Thought he came across badly - (and have always hated the nazi B*st*rd) but the impression of the 'establishment' ganging up on him will play to his 'outsider' cred amongst those predisposed to support him.

And then the same 'anti-fascist' establishment then all immediately agree that immigration is the great cause of all social problems - with no mention of capitalist crisis and corporate greed etc.

You can see the full article on me blog. Cheers!

 

[sonny61]

Having such an audience of middle class lefties, all so keen to show how anti wacist they are by clapping every attack on Griffin, so much so I thought their hands might bleed, will have done the BNP no harm.

Last night was not Question Time, but rather the Nick Griffin show, helped by a load of middle class knobs in the audience, and the BNP's best friends, the UAF protesting outside.

R4 just did some interviews with members of the audience, apart from the usual Griffin is a wacists comments, the most telling one was from a man who said it would not change the average BNP's voter opinions because they would all have been watching X factor.
Hearts and minds hey.

 

[danny la rouge]

The programme was essentially a BNP special edition.

Various people asked Mr Griffin to explain his policies and positions in more detail, which he did in fairly predictable terms. Equally predictably those positions were discussed from fairly conventional viewpoints.

While Mr Griffin didn't come across as a particularly powerful speaker nor a sympathetic character there were no real surprises, no hard punches landed on either side. The overall impression given was simply that the BNP had arrived and their views now form part of the national debate.

Like it or not, this is a pretty accurate account. Griffin was slimey and evasive at times, but then all politicians are. He took the heat from the audience and all the other panelists and host for almost the whole show, and all without saying "Paki". Liberals and anti fascists learned nothing new; we already despise him.

Does anyone seriously think people who are likely to vote BNP don't know very well what they're about? No potential supporter will have heard anything to put them off him. (Other than that he's a bit of a shifty dude, like all politicians). And he made a few points that from his constituency's point were not answered. Why, for example, do the mainstream parties insist there are no indigenous British people, but would not dare say the same of Maoris or Native Americans?

The only real line of defence the other politicians had was to try to sound tough on immigration. If a potential BNP supporter wants an anti immigration party, why would they support one of the parties that have been in government for the last 40 years? Why not go for the real, racist, deal? Jack Straw made the biggest mess of treading this line.

Bonnie Greer was the only one (other than Dimbleby himself) who landed any sort of punch, but not a punch that any potential fascist will be troubled by.

 

[Pie 1]

I thought the show was a fucking shambles.

Yes ok, millions & millions got to see just how thick & pathetic Griffin is.
But it was a ridiculous afair at the end of the day - Greer & Warsi were OKish - Straw just made me want to punch something as usual - I mean what is the point of that fucking fool??
The Questions were on the whole, pretty lame or rather, handled badly & the couple of decent ones, cut off & told they be returned to later.

Fucking circus all round.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Yeah you being right bloody clever probably will......

why don't you answer his question then? All i've seen on this thread is a load of arrogant bollocks. Is that how you counter the BNP then? Smug self superiority?

I think the show was a bit of a circus, perhaps a bit too much of one. But in the end Griffin didn't come off very well. Entrenched BNP supporters will (and have, listening to 5live afterwards) interpret that in their favour while others will begin seeing them and him for what they are. Had the show not focussed on the BNP in the way it did there is every chance he woiuld have been able to avoid having his more odious (more?) views exposed as they were.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Nah - that was the only fucking point he completely scored.

you're kidding right? The audience chewed him right out for that! It came off very badly.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Having such an audience of middle class lefties, .

All of the audience were middle class lefties? How could you tell? Did we watch the same programme?

 

[PeterTCA]

Were I Griffin's spin-doctor I would have instructed him to go direct for the TV viewers and give out a hard right-wing line. But Griffin didn't. He tried to ingraciate himself with the rest of the political class and what he got was a witch-hunt. I've always held that every decent and thoughtful Anarchist should adhere to one specific conspiracy theory. Mine is the Lizards. Did you see his tongue constantly coming in and oput???....say no more...

 

[London_Calling]

Jack Straw was a bit like Brucie; ' I am not doddery, doddery I am not!'.

Yes you fucking are, you daft old wind bag.

 

[john x]

Why, for example, do the mainstream parties insist there are no indigenous British people, but would not dare say the same of Maoris or Native Americans?

I thought Bonnie Greer answered that exact question. Maybe not to the satisfaction of Griffin's constituency and she was a bit rambling, but she did answer it.

john x

 

[kyser_soze]

The public demolition of Griffin's 'nice guy' persona started properly there last night. What many peeps seem to forget is that while there's a rump of BNP support, there are a lot of waverers on both ends of the political spectrum who will have seen how, under pressure, the 'nice guy' persona went away, leaving a somwhat squirmy little man having to tell the world he 'didn't know why I said that'; having to say he only hung out with the 'good' KKK man, the ones that only burned a few churches down; how he 'reconsidered' his holocaust denial, but still felt that there was a relative case to be made about the Red Army killing jews too (which is going to be a big battleground for cultural capital over the next 10 years I reckon)...

And as I said on another thread, a Muslim guy in my office was utterly opposed to the BBC doing this, and came in this morning saying that he thought it was excellent..as was the general consensus around the office. So on this one I'm going with the non-internet people for an assessment of it.

 

[IMR]

I agree with the normalisation angle.

On a positive note though, Griffin didn't come across as a winner, and that at least will be offputting to the kind of person who is ambitious and who might otherwise gravitate towards the BNP.

 

[treelover]

Last night was not Question Time, but rather the Nick Griffin show, helped by a load of middle class knobs in the audience, and the BNP's best friends, the UAF protesting outside.

R4 just did some interviews with members of the audience, apart from the usual Griffin is a wacists comments, the most telling one was from a man who said it would not change the average BNP's voter opinions because they would all have been watching X factor.
Hearts and minds hey.
Reply With Quote

@this, one of the things the left is going to have to confront if it is to be relevant is the quite large element of its supporters, sympathisers, etc who basically have contempt for the poor, the 'underclass' chavs, dolies, etc. I am hearing such sentiments quite frequently these days in progressive mileus, no mention of how thatcher, de-industrialisation has helped create such a group.

 

[danny la rouge]

I thought Bonnie Greer answered that exact question. Maybe not to the satisfaction of Griffin's constituency and she was a bit rambling, but she did answer it.

john x

That's what I mean. Only Greer really challenged him, but not in a way that mattered to his constituency.

I've spoken to a few people this morning who are perhaps a little closer to Griffin's constituency than the sort of metropolitan middle class liberals who were on the show last night. I've had people say to me that they thought the show was a witch hunt, that it was all about attacking Griffin, that it should have been a "normal" show where a range of questions are asked of all the panellists, that they'd like to have heard him being given the chance to answer questions on a range of subjects. And I'm not talking committed fascists here, more like the waverers KS refers to.

Here's the BBC article today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8321683.stm "Griffin attacks Islam on BBC show". I think there are plenty of people replying "Good. About time, too".

The Independent today has "Griffin slain on Question Time" and goes on about him being 'exposed'. To whom was he exposed? And about what? Famous fascist exposed as fascist? Hold the front page.

Yes, he was shifty. Yes, he was evasive. But I put that to a couple of guys this morning, and their reply was that all politicians are shifty, and anyway the whole panel and audience were out to get him. Not that they'd vote BNP, of course. (They added).

"I switched it off. I thought it was disgusting. It was a lynch mob." Those were the exact words of a man I just spoke to. A man who voted Labour in 1997, he tells me, but who has in the past said some very, very un-PC things about immigration to me.

It is people like that that Griffin wanted to reach. I fear he did.

 

[STFC]

Yep - "I'd never vote BNP, but he wasn't given a fair chance to put his view across" - seems to be a common theme this morning from people I've spoken to.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yes, he was shifty. Yes, he was evasive. But I put that to a couple of guys this morning, and their reply was that all politicians are shifty, and anyway the whole panel and audience were out to get him. Not that they'd vote BNP, of course. (They added).

But isn't it supposedly part of Griffen's appeal that he isn't like that, that he's a straight talker?.

 

[danny la rouge]

But isn't it supposedly part of Griffen's appeal that he isn't like that, that he's a straight talker?.

You'd need to ask the people who thought the show was a "witch hunt". That is a view I've had expressed to me this morning. I thought he looked bad, but then I was never going to be won over. Other people (not metropolitan liberals, or Muslims) took away the impression that the BBC, the panel, and the audience looked bad.