Weekend Nazis BBC

[Gingerman]

That wedding wonder what their grandkids will think when they view the wedding photos in years to come,I though the groom looked a bit like Gobbels

 

[JoePolitix]

Why can't people assess the program on its own terms?

Evidently the purpose of the documentary was to expose the extent of far right involvement in the war reinactment scene. Did it or did not achieve it's purpose? Did the participants not expose themselves through their words and actions?

Selling trollies from Belsen? Selling anti-semitic Nazi propoganda? Covering up the atrocities of the Waffen SS? Admitting to be members of Blood and Honour/C18? Espousing racial supremisist thoughts? The presence of David Ervine? The lack of any information on the Holocaust (other than Ervine's revisionist disinformation) or any political context of the war? etc etc

To pose these questions is to answer them.

In that context whether Sweeny was weak or pertinant, whether his findings were predictable, shocking or irrelevant is beside the point. The aim of the doc was achieved and people can take from it what they like.

 

[Steve Booth]

I'm waiting for the BBC documentary blowing the lid off the far right / racist train spotters. I think they are probably more dangerous, and taken across the whole of the country there are probably going to be more of them than the Waffen SS re-enactment society.

But people haven't noticed the trainspotters. They've always been there, standing round on platform three with their anoraks and their thermos flasks...

 

[PaulOK]

I think programmes like this are a waste of time precisely because they concentrate on the paramilitary aspects of fascism - sure groups like these twats, C18, Redwatch, Blood & Honour et al are all very scary and provide pages and pages of copy for magazines like Searchlight but their political effectiveness and value is near to zero. Fascism in 21C Britain doesn't need violence or 'control of the streets'.

For the dangers of fascism we need to look in other and possibly more mudane directions.

 

[JoePolitix]

I think programmes like this are a waste of time precisely because they concentrate on the paramilitary aspects of fascism - sure groups like these twats, C18, Redwatch, Blood & Honour et al are all very scary and provide pages and pages of copy for magazines like Searchlight but their political effectiveness and value is near to zero. Fascism in 21C Britain doesn't need violence or 'control of the streets'.

For the dangers of fascism we need to look in other and possibly more mudane directions.

Exactly correct* but you knew all that before you'd seen the documentary didn't you?

The wider and more important issues around fascism were not explored but that wasn't in the documentary's remit was it? You're essentially criticising it for not being an entirely different program!

* edit - well not exactly correct but that's a different debate

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The presence of David Ervine? The lack of any information on the Holocaust (other than Ervine's revisionist disinformation) or any political context of the war? etc etc

David Irving surely? Unless there are some beyond-the-grave shenanigans that we weren't previously aware of....

 

[JoePolitix]

David Irving surely? Unless there are some beyond-the-grave shenanigans that we weren't previously aware of....

Come to think of it its a shame that Irving's revisionist screeds were not written in an incomprehensible Scottish dialect.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Why can't people assess the program on its own terms?

Evidently the purpose of the documentary was to expose the extent of far right involvement in the war reinactment scene. Did it or did not achieve it's purpose? Did the participants not expose themselves through their words and actions?

Selling trollies from Belsen? Selling anti-semitic Nazi propoganda? Covering up the atrocities of the Waffen SS? Admitting to be members of Blood and Honour/C18? Espousing racial supremisist thoughts? The presence of David Ervine? The lack of any information on the Holocaust (other than Ervine's revisionist disinformation) or any political context of the war? etc etc

To pose these questions is to answer them.

In that context whether Sweeny was weak or pertinant, whether his findings were predictable, shocking or irrelevant is beside the point. The aim of the doc was achieved and people can take from it what they like.

we are it was a shit piece of sensationalism which actually like many so called documentaries proved fuck all except that in any given circle of people large enough some of them will behave in a manner most people would question or find objectional... how exactly this tallies with the sensationalist well they are dress as nazis daily mail type harry hysteria is of little relevance if they were roman reenactors then would he have been able to draw a paraelle then no... easy pcikigns for an insubstantial group of people... it's not like every village town and city has a significant amount of these people dressing up and whilst there is a problem with far right wing groups on the rise in the uk we have to look at the mainstream parties who are filling their boots with the propganda of the far right and in essence normalising that behaviour of bigotry and insitutionalised ractionism...

and to do that then we don't need spoonfed muppet morons with axes to grind at middle england's play time we need serious intelligent open and honest debate, else the stnadards we set now for our future generations will come back to haunt us...

 

[Giles]

In my opinion all these people who obsessively re-enact and re-live whatever past armies are bound to be a bit, well, odd, aren't they?

And I haven't seen this programme, but I don't think it took an investigative documentary to "reveal" that at least some of the more "committed" re-enactors idolise the people they re-enact.

I bet some of the people who do Roman army stuff are pretty authoritarian / right wing as well...... I can imagine the talk in the beer-tent after a hard day's fighting (or re-enacting) along the lines of "a year in the legions would soon sort out these hoodies, etc etc....."

Giles..

 

[Dhimmi]

we are it was a shit piece of sensationalism which actually like many so called documentaries proved fuck all except that in any given circle of people large enough some of them will behave in a manner most people would question or find objectional... how exactly this tallies with the sensationalist well they are dress as nazis daily mail type harry hysteria is of little relevance if they were roman reenactors then would he have been able to draw a paraelle then no... easy pcikigns for an insubstantial group of people... it's not like every village town and city has a significant amount of these people dressing up and whilst there is a problem with far right wing groups on the rise in the uk we have to look at the mainstream parties who are filling their boots with the propganda of the far right and in essence normalising that behaviour of bigotry and insitutionalised ractionism...
and to do that then we don't need spoonfed muppet morons with axes to grind at middle england's play time we need serious intelligent open and honest debate, else the stnadards we set now for our future generations will come back to haunt us...

Hurrah! Well spotted and even better said.

This "documentary" hung it's hat very loosely on two very short pieces of footage- some of the Shit Irving, and the secret filming of some blokes in a beer tent being asked questions by the reporter such as "IF you had a choice between letting more Muslem immigrants come to the UK or getting rid of them all which would you choose?". Walk into any pub and ask that and someone will say almost exactly the same, even someone dressed as a Tommy. Very shoddy journalism.

Basically the crew on this wandered around the show pissing everybody off, had time to be polite to Irving, didn't film Beharry, polite to the couple having the wedding to their face, slated them in narration. He asked all the German reactors the same three questions; "Are you gay?", "Is this a gay fetish thing?" and "Are you a member of the BNP?" This didn't make the final cut, but having alienated the reenactors to the point of them not wishing to talk anymore generated the "No comment" reaction from the SBG organiser. With a neat bit of editing this becomes him denying something else entirely.

Mix this in with sinister music, endless shots of nazi regalia, and a serious tone of narration and you have a mildly entertaining invention, but not a documentary. There wasn't a mention of the funds they raise for charity, the hundreds of other re-enactors of all types present, nor how without the German groups the Allied ones can't put on the big displays they do for the public.

I know a few renactors of all types, they're just spods in uniform. The unique thing about the German ones is that they are actually sensitive about not encouraging extreme views. They have strict rules about what is and isn't acceptable behaviour such as No Sieg Heiling, No Goose stepping, No racial or purity propaganda, in fact more so than any other shared interest group I know of. When they've found an extremist in their ranks they've booted them out, and tipped off other groups about them. All this detail is probably a little too much for Sweeney to be bothered with...

 

[tbaldwin]

He found one nazi. A failed academic with mental health problems, he shook his hand.........
Great Programme.....

 

[JoePolitix]

Hurrah! Well spotted and even better said.

This "documentary" hung it's hat very loosely on two very short pieces of footage- some of the Shit Irving, and the secret filming of some blokes in a beer tent being asked questions by the reporter such as "IF you had a choice between letting more Muslem immigrants come to the UK or getting rid of them all which would you choose?". Walk into any pub and ask that and someone will say almost exactly the same, even someone dressed as a Tommy. Very shoddy journalism.

Basically the crew on this wandered around the show pissing everybody off, had time to be polite to Irving, didn't film Beharry, polite to the couple having the wedding to their face, slated them in narration. He asked all the German reactors the same three questions; "Are you gay?", "Is this a gay fetish thing?" and "Are you a member of the BNP?" This didn't make the final cut, but having alienated the reenactors to the point of them not wishing to talk anymore generated the "No comment" reaction from the SBG organiser. With a neat bit of editing this becomes him denying something else entirely.

Mix this in with sinister music, endless shots of nazi regalia, and a serious tone of narration and you have a mildly entertaining invention, but not a documentary. There wasn't a mention of the funds they raise for charity, the hundreds of other re-enactors of all types present, nor how without the German groups the Allied ones can't put on the big displays they do for the public.

I know a few renactors of all types, they're just spods in uniform. The unique thing about the German ones is that they are actually sensitive about not encouraging extreme views. They have strict rules about what is and isn't acceptable behaviour such as No Sieg Heiling, No Goose stepping, No racial or purity propaganda, in fact more so than any other shared interest group I know of. When they've found an extremist in their ranks they've booted them out, and tipped off other groups about them. All this detail is probably a little too much for Sweeney to be bothered with...

Well I'm not sure how you know what questions weren't included in the final cut but I think your idea that the Nazi reinactment scene is wholly innocent and stitched up is a little far fetched. What next - hey, the Scientologists do a lotta good work for chardidy? Give me a break.

Perfectly good explanations for selling trollies from Belsen, the selling of anti-semitic Nazi propoganda, covering up the atrocities of the SS, admitting to be members of Blood and Honour/C18, espousing racial supremisist thoughts and the presence of David Ervine I take it?

(I'm no Sweeny fan especially btw. He did a very dodgy documentary about the effect of sanctions on Iraq, basically laying all the blame for the effects on the Iraqi government.)

 

[Hollis]

Yes - it was an interesting show. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. Military re-enactment is generally freaky enough to be worth a programme in its own right. (abit like a programme on twitchers I saw afew years back).

I probably have an above average interest in WW11, but I can't say I particularly get the desire to dress up as a Nazi,.. seems abit dodgy and 'selective' at best.

Still, I guess it says something about the strength of nazi imagery (ditto communist imagery etc.)..

 

[Dhimmi]

JP,
I mean generally, as well you know.

Perfectly good explanations for selling trollies from Belsen,

The re-enactors weren't selling that, and it's not actually proven that it's a trolley from Belsen. Many traders often try to fake items, try searching for SAS or Commando or Parachute Regiment on ebay and you're find a pile of tat with one or more of those labels added to try to boost the price.

the selling of anti-semitic Nazi propoganda,

The re-enactors weren't selling that. The booksellers were selling books of historical or academic interest. Thousands of books too from lots of dealers and publishers covering a multitude of subjects. Would an English translation of Russian propaganda be as emotive? Or Allied?
If someone wanted to find out what chapter one of "Mein Kampf" was about, or what the propaganda leaflets the Allies dropped on German troops said how should they find out? Ask someone who can't spell propaganda perhaps?

covering up the atrocities of the SS,

Are you seriously suggesting that a pile of spods in costume have hidden well documented historical incidents? How did they do this and what exactly have they hidden?

admitting to be members of Blood and Honour/C18,

Hmmm, one or two mainland European citizens making such a claim while drunk. Did Sweeney follow this up? No he left it swinging in the wind.

espousing racial supremisist thoughts

Three, or was it four, unidentified blokes giving it all that in a beer tent. You'd find this at just about every event in the UK, doesn't make the whole anyone thing though.

and the presence of David Ervine I take it?

For someone with Politix as part of their handle I don't see how you can get so many simple facts wrong tbh.
This is David Ervine, he wasn't there. He is dead.

This is David Irvine...

He was there although not with the reenactors, nor with the organisers consent. Not going to try to link Johnson Beharry's presence to the reenactors? Why not?

(I'm no Sweeny fan especially btw. He did a very dodgy documentary about the effect of sanctions on Iraq, basically laying all the blame for the effects on the Iraqi government.)

So what are we arguing about? Cheap journo in sensationalist reporting drama? If I applied points similar to yours to Muslims I'd be claiming they're all terrorists, and I'd be wrong wouldn't I?

 

[Irenick]

Isn't he that Canadian snooker player - but bald? When did Clint Thorburn die?

 

[nino_savatte]

No, how do you think the total of nazi war re-enactors compares to total BNP votes? Given that they picked up nearly a million votes few years back do you think there are more or less nazi war re-enactors?

What the fuck are you talking about? or is it the case that you're trying to give the impression that you know what you're talking about?

I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned "race" yet.

 

[goldenecitrone]

If they're so into war games why don't they join the TA and go over to Iraq for a little tour. Bunch of cowards.

 

[dylanredefined]

The scary thing is some do both ! Know someone who is into ss re inactment and in the ta .Upset the germans in afgan for playing nazi marching songs and wearing an africa corp hat .They throw rocks at him
daft nazi cunt thought he was honuring them .


As an aside german doctors day was made when after treating some squaddy who had broken his leg he got to say"For you tommy the war is over"

 

[dash_two]

Basically If you dress up as a German SS Panzertruppe you are a German SS Panzertruppe.

If you dress up as a German SS Panzertruppe you're more likely to be still living with your mum.

 

[JoePolitix]

What a condescending twat Dhimmi is. I couldn’t give a shit what you think of my spelling - since when did you become Lynne fucking Truss?

I clearly stated I was talking about the reinactment scene which includes the traders and writers that turn up at such events. And to be frank the social events I attend don’t generally have people spouting off things like "We are losing our country, losing our blood because of jigaboos. Our blood is not any more fresh" but then again maybe I mix in limited social circles.

In addition:

In April, the SBG sparked outrage when children were allowed to wear the brown shirts of the Hitler Youth and sell Nazi memorabilia at Salute '07 in the Docklands, organised by the South London Warlords wargames society, according to The Jewish Chronicle.

The society apologised and vowed not to invite the SBG back.

Gerry Gable, the publisher of Searchlight, the international anti-fascist magazine said the Government should "look at the licensing of these organisations".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/25/nazi125.xml

In short – you can shove your SS uniform up your arse.

Spelling alright for you there fuckface?

 

[tbaldwin]

but then again maybe I mix in limited social circles.

I think thats true of a lot of people. And the kind of lazy alarmist journalism in the programme, is likely to appeal to people with a very narrow experience of life.
People dressing up as Nazis may be funny or just sad but how important is it?
If it was on something like Louis Theroux fair enough....But trying to dress this up as a serious investigation was laughable...

 

[chymaera]

I think thats true of a lot of people. And the kind of lazy alarmist journalism in the programme, is likely to appeal to people with a very narrow experience of life.
.

I saw a repeat of the program last night, and personally if I were away on a hobby weekend and a film crew turned up with the express purpose of having a shit stir, I would not be very co-operative with them either.
I heard no comments by anyone on the program I have not heard on and off in pubs for as long as I have been old enough to drink. (41 years).

 

[MANCS_MURPH]

Quote "Gerry Gable, the publisher of Searchlight, the international anti-fascist magazine said the Government should "look at the licensing of these organisations". "

I find it more sinister that someone on these boards thinks Gerry Gable is worth quoting!


Sod the SS re-enactors, did you see the Jap re-enactor?? WTF do they do?? Now that would have been interesting, but Sweeney blew it.