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We want a Tank for DSEi!

In Bloom said:
*checks calender*

Nope, still pretty sure the problem's at your end, mate.

Even if there was the tiniest little chance of shutting down DSEi a la Seattle or Prague, what would that achieve? What concrete gains were made among all the arrests and serious injuries in every other summit protest over the last few years?
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Zero concrete gains I'm afraid. All that will happen is the govt will move the fair to a more defendable location.

Injuries and arrests for fuck all really.

I sometimes wonder whether or not the anarchos who mouth off about violent direct action are just in it for the buzz of the violence. Maybe if their life paths had been different they would have been football hoolies.

I used to think that in some circumstances violent direct action could in certain limited circumstances achieve something but as time has gone by I've come to the conclusion that most of the time it achieves fuck all.
 
In BloomEven if there was the tiniest little chance of shutting down DSEi a la Seattle or Prague said:
regardless of that fun fun discussion, there is NO commitment, NONE WHATSOEVER to taking on that kind of action around dsei anyway. Especially not from the fucking space invaders.

Thats the main point here - whether its 'worth it' or not, dsei is not going to be 'shut down'. The space invaders may well get some good press for putting the fun into protesting man. Cos if you're going to make statement, do it in stlye! Yeah!

You could have organised an annual fun run where large groups of anarchists run through a major high street bollocko, with prizes for whoever shoplifts the best outfit along the way and it would have built up relationships, networks of support, etc.
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Don't discuss internal AF projects! :mad:

I sometimes wonder whether or not the anarchos who mouth off about violent direct action are just in it for the buzz of the violence. Maybe if their life paths had been different they would have been football hoolies.
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Some are :(
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smokedout said:
yeah cos if people are prepared to donate 10 grand to the anarchist movement then what better way to spend it then buying a bunch of art students a tank that will probably end up confiscated and impounded on its first action
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The only good system is a sound system? ;)
 
In Bloom said:
They could have sprung up from anything. You could have organised an annual fun run where large groups of anarchists run through a major high street bollocko, with prizes for whoever shoplifts the best outfit along the way and it would have built up relationships, networks of support, etc.
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Would that have brought people into contact with radical ideas who wanted to do something politically, but didn't know how?

I agree that these actions don't achieve much else, but they do bring people into radical politics.
 
Blagsta said:
Would that have brought people into contact with radical ideas who wanted to do something politically, but didn't know how?

I agree that these actions don't achieve much else, but they do bring people into radical politics.
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The thing is that this could happen through pretty much anything. Not literally anything, of course, but still, it strikes me as a bit silly that so many people need a "way in" to radical politics and that so often, it's doing a lot of pointless shit.
 
I also get where you're coming from, but I think it's a bit too gloomy. Well, a lot too gloomy really.
There's the international solidarity - which, yeah, could've been fostered by other kinds of events. But the fact is they were fostered by these events, and it's a positive thing. I don't really get your point. To say they could have been achieved by other means doesn't take you anywhere really, does it?:confused:
I think the camps that sprung up around the summits are often inspiring places to be. They introduce people to direct democracy (or re-affirm peoples' belief it), and give them an insight into what it's like to run thier own lives collectively with a large and diverse group of people. Also a positive thing.
I also think that as a way of 'bringing people in' they're pretty succesful. I've seen loads of people over the years who've developed a higher level of militancy after going to a summit, which has fed into their actions back home. Another good thing.
And they have a symbolic impact, which shouldn't be ignored or dismissed as unimportant. Not always a positive thing, but I'm sure it's had some positive impact.
 
In Bloom said:
They could have sprung up from anything. You could have organised an annual fun run where large groups of anarchists run through a major high street bollocko, with prizes for whoever shoplifts the best outfit along the way and it would have built up relationships, networks of support, etc.
What have summit protests ever achieved that is unique to summit protests?
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I take your point... but so what?
You asked...
In Bloom said:
What concrete gains were made among all the arrests and serious injuries in every other summit protest over the last few years?
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... and there are quite a few. Doesn't matter if they could have been achieved by other hypothetical means. What matters is they were achieved by these means. [end of de-rail]
 
Blagsta said:
I understand your frustrations with the dead endedness of it, but it does bring people in.
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But is that a reason to advocate it as a tactic (as DrRingDing was effectively doing)? Aren't there more useful things we could be getting on with, which, by the very fact that they are more relevant to people's everyday lives would be far more effective in radicalising people, as well as being useful in and of themselves?

On a sidenote, and I'm not sure I conveyed this so well in my last post, I'm less than comfortable with this idea that what we need to be doing is drawing people into the activist milleu. Surely the fact that there is an "in" and an "out" is already problematic?
 
well....
personally i've done a climate pirate demo once, and that's as radical as i've got. i'm a pretty fluffy person, generally :)
this year i'm disarming disei, and i'm climate camping (i've met a couple of other people who're dsei-ing and also doing this , which makes me feel a bit more confident about going to something massive where i don't know many people and will definitely get covered in mud, and possibly arrested/roughed up).

it's also making me super-aware of the 'choose your battles' thing - a fuckload of work is required, as well as the fun bits....
i want to help with no borders too but ... ag... at the very least, i'm gonna help out with the conversation classes down at commonplace.
we'll see what life's like after september (not that it all stops then, of course.....)
/my bit of derail
 
Point being, I think, that politics shouldn't be confined to one off symbolic actions. It should be part and parcel of struggles in the community and the workplace and how we relate to our fellow human beings.
 
In Bloom said:
Even if there was the tiniest little chance of shutting down DSEi a la Seattle or Prague
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Neither of which was actually shut down.

One way of telling the story of what happened in Seattle is that the delegates from Obscuristan and Islandia looked out of the window at the protests, looked at each other and said "'ang on, we're not the only ones pissed at being fucked over by the 'merkins... and we're in here and we have a vote." [Based on a true story from a delegate who I don't have time to look up.]

Fast forward to G8 Gleneagles and Rostock where the powers that be feel the need to launch their whole publicity machine around poverty, debt and climate change. Of course they were still chatting inside about how to screw us all over - but they were also doing masive propaganda work for those who oppose them. As a side-effect of activism of the kind derided.

Politics is complicated.
 
it takes all sorts. if everyone protests in their own way and offers a bit of support to those who do things differently it would be nice.

sadly of course, many of us see other peoples tactics as counter-productive and therefore pointless or dangerous. cue the bickering.
 
Blagsta said:
Point being, I think, that politics shouldn't be confined to one off symbolic actions. It should be part and parcel of struggles in the community and the workplace and how we relate to our fellow human beings.
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Which has what to do with the entirely symbolic pushing and shoving between politicos and police at summits?
 
In Bloom said:
But is that a reason to advocate it as a tactic (as DrRingDing was effectively doing)? Aren't there more useful things we could be getting on with, which, by the very fact that they are more relevant to people's everyday lives would be far more effective in radicalising people, as well as being useful in and of themselves?
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Yeah but only a tool would suggest they're mutually exclusive.
 
On a more important note are many urban people going to be at DSEI? I shall be there with a hopefully large group of people from Coventry...
 
nosos said:
Yeah but only a tool would suggest they're mutually exclusive.
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I never said they were mutually exclusive, just that one is unnecessary.

Though I do think that there is only so much you can do. Nobody has completely limitless time, energy and resources, after all.
 
377326.jpg


So we ran an an Anti-DSEi stall on Brick Lane this weekend to raise tank funds, and more importantly raise awareness of the fair.

As regards symbolic actions, and their worth i think the following.

The main point of the hijacker tank, isn't so much about driving it over riot vans and through the doors of the fair. It's much more about raising awareness of the fact the worlds biggest arms fair happens on our doorsteps. It's about trying to come up with something that will give people more confidence to come down to the fair and disrupt proceedings. The more people that come out of the woodwork to come and play, the more it costs to police the fair. As far as i'm aware the cost to the tax payer has been up to £2M before.

We fully intend to cause as much trouble as possible at the fair, as we believe that the entire enterprise is corrupt and wrong. Several of the people on our stall this weekend had been flyering in Canning Town (where the fair happens) before coming to our stall. There is a definate effort to engage with the local people (most of which are hostile to the fair already).

I don't know if we will shut down the fair, to be honest I doubt it. However we will make things very uncomfortable and expensive for them. We will make the fair much more in the public eye, which is the last thing they want. We will get a tank, and drive it to the fair. The police and government may freak out a bit when we roll up in our tank, but thank god our tank will be de-commissioned unlike the ones in the fair, which will be sold with the intent of killing lots and lots of people. Hopefully one day, the powers that be will get their moral compass put right.
 
Yeah whatever my problems with you guys I'd fucking love you to get a tank :D

Is the legality of it confirmed though?
 
there's a bunch of leedsians including a least one urbanite gonny be there.
the leedsians didn't know about the tank plans. they do now though :)
 
nosos said:
Yeah whatever my problems with you guys I'd fucking love you to get a tank :D

Is the legality of it confirmed though?
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In terms of legality it all depends on which type we get etc.

you can buy big APC's which can be insured and driven much like cars (although with armour plating and a big turret and gun), tracked vehicles require rubber pads to make them road legal and an H license (which is about £650 to do the course).

If you get ww2 vehicles they are road tax exempt which makes things cheaper.

gradually we are sorting all of this out in our heads.
 
i'm sure they will try all sorts,

we have a Hijacker who now works for Liberty, so we are hoping that she will be able to give us advice on that side of things. Infact we may even try and persuade her to ride in the tank with us.
 
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