We Need To Talk (TERF bigots)

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by Sea Star, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model One star in sight

    which is why we all hope the transgender committee which so signally failed in the case of kw will perform better in future.
     
  2. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    In prisons, hopefully. Still leaves other spaces.
     
  3. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model One star in sight

    obviously.
     
  4. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    Can you point to any example of this happening in countries which have adopted self-ID?
     
  5. MadeInBedlam

    MadeInBedlam Arm the mentally ill

  6. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model One star in sight

  7. MadeInBedlam

    MadeInBedlam Arm the mentally ill

    Tbf never seen gulags defended on a tra/terf basis before
     
  8. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    Are we really going to turn this thread into a oh look what the loony left gays, lesbians, queers and transgenders said?
     
  9. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    Whenever anyone mentions the word "story" and the name "Johan Hari" in the same sentence, I think of the story he wrote about him and his brother. :eek:
     
  10. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    That particular group has history for fuckwittedness - defending vile homophobic misogynists last time they came up on here. To say that they are rather confused would be an understatement. Fuckwit students being fuckwit students isn't much in and of itself. That it comes in a wider context of terfblocker and attempted blacklisting for academics deemed to be 'terfs' shows the milieu in which such fuckwittedness is being fostered. It is absurd that some quarters are attempting to brand certain views hate speech, and not just idiot students.

    Smokedout is right of course that it is almost exclusively the r/w press that is (gleefully) picking up on these currents, and that they do so for horrible r/w reactionary reasons. So what should the response be of the rest of us? Should we ignore it? When horrible wankers tried to shout down Mariam Namazie at Goldsmiths and the idiots of the LGBT group supported them, the reaction on here to that was firm. Should we not be equally firm towards those students and their teachers who are attempting similar now, directed at 'terfs'. Or is it because many of us agree with Mariam Namazie that we condemned attempts to shut her up? Do we only defend those we completely agree with?
     
    Plumdaff, co-op and PursuedByBears like this.
  11. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    How could I (or anyone) possibly know whether those who claim to be trans in those countries are?
     
  12. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    Well given the warnings that men will fake being trans in order to abuse women if self-ID is introduced then you might have expected some examples of this happening where it's been introduced. Argentina has had it since 2012, Denmark since 2014, Ireland for over two years, Norway, Malta, Belgium and Sweden all have self-ID and Portugal has just joined them. India has self-ID types rules, as does Pakistan, so do many parts of Canada and the US, and lots of countries have much less onerous requirements than the UK to legally change gender. Even in the UK the Equalities Act is based on self-ID which could permit a man to falsely claim he was undergoing gender transition to acces womens spaces.

    Now there was one case in Canada of someone who may or may not have been trans committing two offences in a womens shelter, although this was really a failure of safeguarding given their offending history. But that seems to be it. And I'm not sure that even happened in a province with official self-ID, most refuges in the US, Canada and the UK are already trans inclusive on a self-ID basis out of choice.

    So is it something specific to the UK that will facilitate this behaviour, or this particular reform - which is trivial compared to the 2004 act, which some warned would lead to men pretending to be trans to abuse women, yet that hasn't happened so far. I agree it's theoretically possible, but so are all kinds of things, but that doesn't make them likely. And yet some people insist, over and over again, that this will not just happen, but happen lots, enough to make all womens spaces unsafe. I just can't see any foundation at all for that claim based on the evidence, can you?
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  13. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    All very interesting, but I didn't make that claim.
     
  14. Sea Star

    Sea Star this is not a tagline

    balanced and rational article addressing the topic recently discussed on this thread:
    Foxes in the Henhouse: Putting the Trans Women Prison Debate in Perspective
     
  15. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    I still see confusion. That final paragraph highlights it - 'there are no foxes, only vixens', ie you have to accept a priori that trans women are women, anything else being a 'false division': thus neatly defining terfy objections out of existence. But at the same time, the author applauds the idea of depathologising the process of transition such that the pathologising hurdles to be jumped over to gain recognition of transition are removed. Somehow one's body now becomes irrelevant to the discussion, is removed from the discussion. The consideration of bodies is removed from the definitions of 'woman' or 'man'. That's confused.
     
    co-op and Sunset Tree like this.
  16. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

  17. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    You could make the exact same arguments for mixed sex prisons. On the basis that not all men are rapists, and there are procedures in place to identify and ameliorate the dangers posed by those who are known to represent such a risk.
     
    Sunset Tree and TopCat like this.
  18. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    One should always be somewhat suspicious of articles where the author cites themselves for supporting evidence.
     
    8ball likes this.
  19. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    The proposed depathologisation of the official process of transition is still in a muddle as far as I can tell. While I agree that the various scare stories about self-ID are not at all backed up by evidence from other countries, some basic contradictions remain within the idea. It is depathologised, so no longer considered a medical condition to be transgender, yet those who seek to transition invariably seek medical help in the form of drugs and/or surgery. If you have a condition that requires medical intervention, you have a medical condition, no? Not only are you redefining terms such as 'woman' and 'man', taking out any reference to bodies, which are the main way that most people identify themselves as one or the other, but you're also redefining 'medical condition' such that it doesn't include certain conditions for which medical treatment is sought and given. That's an awful lot of redefining.

    The idea of 'assigned female/male at birth' suffers from a similar problem. This assumes primacy of gender over sex where, I would suggest, for most people, if they were asked why they consider themselves to be female or male, the first thing they would point out would be their biology - they were 'assigned' this or that due to their biology, and it is the biology that decides here, not the act of assignation. Again, redefinition is under way in this process. While these new systems of thought and definition may be ideal for a trans person to make sense of themselves and those around them, it's not a good match for many other people, in fact, it runs directly counter to the way many other people see themselves and others. At the very least there needs to be an acknowledgement of that. Dismissing it as 'false division' won't do.
     
  20. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    There have been articles posted on this thread where practically all the citations are of the author or the agenda-laden publication it is being posted in.
     
    cupid_stunt likes this.
  21. Saul Goodman

    Saul Goodman It's all good, man

    And apparently, that article
    ... according to its author :facepalm:
     
  22. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    That said, we’re not doing anything which, as far as I know, has caused the sky to fall in in various countries where it has already been done.
     
  23. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    In some ways, I'm relatively easy about the conceptual muddle. However, some trans advocates, such as the law professor quoted above, demand absolute conceptual clarity just as much as 'terfs' do. But if anything the terf position is the easier of the two to justify, conceptually, without the position giving rise to absurdities. Surely the best way to approach this has to be to propose – and to request room for – a plurality of positions.
     
  24. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    That really depends on your values and priorities.
     
  25. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    I don't think so. It's a way of allowing different people as much as possible to express their priorities and have as many of their needs/desires met as possible. There can never be a conceptual coming together here, and it seems to me that there are plenty of people on both sides of the argument who are prepared to deliberately talk past the other side in order to make their point, maintaining their conceptual purity by denying that the other side even has a position. It's as intractable as the question of Palestine, but in this case, it's not even agreed who are the Palestinians and who are the Israelis. At various points, both sides claim to be the Palestinians, their very existence denied.
     
  26. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    I think you proved my point with the rest of your post. :)
     
    ViolentPanda likes this.
  27. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    Yup.

    Last time I remember the practice being this prevalent was when Murray & Herrnstein released "The Bell Curve". Not only was the book self-referential, but it also cited lots of "fellow-travellers" who also believed that African-Americans were "naturally" less intelligent than whites. Hardly any citations of those who didn't hold such an opinion, even though most legitimate scholarship usually includes citations of those you're arguing against.
     
    campanula and Pickman's model like this.
  28. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    Well quite! :D
     
  29. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model One star in sight

    Only usually
     
  30. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    TBF, I'd only let it go with academics I knew to be honest, so not very many. :D
     
    Saul Goodman and Pickman's model like this.

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