We Need To Talk (TERF bigots)

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by Sea Star, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. ginger_syn

    ginger_syn ~¡¬

    I dont mind it, always handy to have some reference points for a research rummage on twitter if you're not familiar with it.
    Pickman's model likes this.
  2. Sweet FA

    Sweet FA ✪ Three rounds Lord, in my .44 ✪

    I was including you as 'a poster here' - I'm interested in what you have to say. Less so in what Twitter says.

    I don't trust it :hmm:
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 7:06 AM
    Edie and MadeInBedlam like this.
  3. Sunset Tree

    Sunset Tree Well-Known Member

    Is the idea that 'debating peoples lives and identities' is oppressive another example of idealism? It's not material systems which are oppressive, it's words and ideas?
  4. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    It is also you projecting your experience of gender dysphoria onto everyone else. I have never wanted to change my body because of the gender role I was forced into, at least not knowingly. I just wanted to change my body because it didn't feel right. And I wanted to change my presentation, aesthetically I prefer it when I appear more towards the femme end of the spectrum, possibly because it can help with dysphoria (I think because of internalised socially conditioned gendered expectations) but honestly, I'd probably be quite happy as a butch(ish) lesbian. I don't really want to do hair and make up every time I leave the house just to be deemed socially acceptable, but given I haven't started hormones and I'm 43 then it takes a bit of effort not to be regarded as some weird bloke in a dress, with all the unpleasant social consequences that can come from that. People seem to be comfortable if you go one way or the other and so thats what I do, for other people, not for me.

    Honestly I couldn;t really give a fuck about gender other than a hard to explain sense of being on the wrong team Of not liking it when blokes do the blokey lets talk bout birds thing with me, of feeling slightly hurt when the 'girls' go off together without me, and all the other subtle manifestations of gender which happen, whether we like it or not. I grew up with most of my role models being female or older girls, thats who I empathised wth and wanted to be like, I feel quite sad that I wasn't able to experience being a mother (much as I love being a Dad), I wish I could have sex in a body and role that feels natural to me and not awkward as fuck. And there is some stuff I can do about this, which I'm doing, and which invoves a degree of social, and possibly medical transition.

    Right now I couldn't give a fuck whether I'm regarded as a woman by people, as a trans woman, gender queer/fluid, whatever, although I appreciate people using pronouns that match my presentation becaue it feels rude and jarring when people' don't. Obviously if I moved exclusively into one gender role, or had some medical treatment then it would likely become more important to me, because society expects you to be one or the other and punishes you if you arent.

    And what I do know is that if i present as female that comes with a cost, the main one being a risk of male sexual/physical violence but also other in areas where my experiences are closer to cis women than mens. That doesn't mean I'm exactly the same at all, but it does mean that I support those who are living in their aquired gender full time as being treated as that gender and if they are women having the social protections that are necessary to be safe. And I suport people whose gender identity is fluid, non-binary or non existent because I can empathise with some of the struggle they have probably been through. But gender as pink and blue, dolls or tanks, fuck that, nothing to do with me, and when I first came across this line of attack on tran speople I actually found it quite confusing because it had always been about my body, how I related to people, my sexuality, how I was socially classed and I suppose to some degree my presentation than any arbitery set of behaviours, interests or characteristics baed on my genitals.

    Now like every other trans person my experience is personal to me but I'm not about to condemn anyone whose experience of or reaction to gender dysphoria is different to mine. I'm not going to condemn someone who expects to be treated as the gender they live in, and I'm not going to condemn people for fighting for that. And in my experience then actually it's difficult not to think of someone trans in the gender they present in uually once you get to know them. Look how uncomfortable everyone was with Miranda's pronouns, no-one used male pronouns because it feels awkward - despite him identifying as male. When you move this discussion from theory into practice in my experience a very different set of behaviours begins to emerge than those expected by following logical, biological and ideological line.

    The quote comes from Transsexual empire by Janice Raymond. Sheila Jeffreys, who can be seen in the video that began this thread, dedicated her book to her. These people exist, not on this thread perhaps, but their existence cannot do anything other than influence this debate.
    mango5, mrsfran, quimcunx and 9 others like this.
  5. trashpony

    trashpony Ovaries and tings

    You’re only allowed to debate women’s* lives and identities. Ours are meaningless and not worthy of consideration.

    *When I say women, I mean the cunty kind just for clarity.
    weepiper likes this.
  6. Sunset Tree

    Sunset Tree Well-Known Member

    Never trust anyone who genuinely enjoys or values twitter
  7. crossthebreeze

    crossthebreeze Well-Known Member

    Following that tweet onto Owl's twitter, it seems to be part of a series of tweets about them being asked to be part of a university debating society debate, and there is also reference to some of their media appearances which they have felt uncomfortable with because of it being two sides. Obviously they may well mean it as a wider point, but I would have thought that a debate in the formal sense (where there is a winner and a loser and two sides) is different from a discussion (where there are many points of view and the aim is hopefully to at least understand each other's position better even if compromise can't be found).
    And that's the problem with tweets innit - they usually have context, their short nature often means they can be misconstrued easily, and the people who wrote them aren't usually on here to explain what they mean.
  8. The Flying Pig

    The Flying Pig Well-Known Member

    You appear to me to be lost in space.
  9. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    Point of clarification- one of the people you posted isn't lesbian, she is a straight cis woman. I'm not sure it matters, but does demonstrate solidarity is not only a LGBTQIA+ (I'm sure I've missed something from that letter salad) thing
    elbows likes this.
  10. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    Thanks for the clarification, I'm not on top form at the moment.
  11. trashpony

    trashpony Ovaries and tings

    I'm fairly sure you will take this in the wrong way as it's from me but you've said words to this effect repeatedly and that you need to take a break from this. Please do. Your mental health is much more important than arguing on the internet.
    spirals, Omaplata, weepiper and 3 others like this.
  12. HoratioCuthbert

    HoratioCuthbert From bean to cup I fuck up

    That means women that are proper bad people, trust me on this I’m Scottish.
  13. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    Thanks :) I'm not even tempted to take it the wrong way, which I must admit probably surprises me as much as it will you!
  14. trashpony

    trashpony Ovaries and tings

  15. PursuedByBears

    PursuedByBears Go stick your head in a pig

    That's quite quite mad.
  16. weepiper

    weepiper Jock under the bed

    I read it as that. I thought she meant TERFs :oops::D
    HoratioCuthbert likes this.
  17. HoratioCuthbert

    HoratioCuthbert From bean to cup I fuck up

    ? Did I miss a bit of lunacy? Damn
  18. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    Bah, now I'll never know whether it was something I could have used to help explain some of the shit I've been going on about in recent days.

    Oh well, take care everyone and I will see you all again at some future undetermined point when I feel better. I should not rush back at the first signs of feeling refreshed like I did last time.
  19. TopCat

    TopCat Gone away, no forwarding address

    You start a thread that gets thousands of responses. Why ignore the responses?
    MrSpikey, sealion, Omaplata and 5 others like this.
  20. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    Stop trying to undermine the solidarity! :D
  21. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

  22. Saul Goodman

    Saul Goodman It's all good, man

    OK, see you in 15 minutes.
  23. weepiper

    weepiper Jock under the bed

    That's unkind and unnecessary.
  24. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    Interesting study here which shows that the huge rise in trans people having treatment in the Netherlands has not impacted on the very low regret rates, suggesting healthcare providers and patients are making the right decisions: The Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria Study (1972-2015): Trends in Prevalence, Treatment, and Regrets. - PubMed - NCBI

    8ball and Pickman's model like this.
  25. nyxx

    nyxx Active Member

  26. nyxx

    nyxx Active Member

  27. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

  28. wayward bob

    wayward bob i ate all your bees

    does anyone have full text for this?

    adolescent mental health (policy & practice) is a fairly hefty part of my material reality atm, so feels like understanding the reasoning behind/impact of various treatment protocols is squarely on my watch. self-id really wouldn't impact on me personally because "public life" is something i have very little of these days. not sure which axis of oppression that was, but meh, it is.

  29. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    I couldn't find the full study, there's a fairly recent one on he impact of allowing kids to socially transition which might be more relevent here (still just an abstract though): https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(16)31941-4/fulltext

    It is early days, and there's always a need for more research, but every study I've seen on social transition for kids, and puberty blockers later, shows promising results. It would be unethical to ignore this and is probably the reason The Lancet recently endorsed gender affirming treatment for trans children.

    I really hope people read up on some of this because it seems to me on one hand you've got doctors, researchers and health professionals advocating a cautious approach based on the evidence to date and on the other the Evangelical movement and a handful of medically unqualified parents and rad fems who don't believe transgender exists and are giving pseudo-clinical advice to parents of trans children in contradiction with near universal medical consenus which is backed by increasingly robust peer reviewed evidence.

    These same groups claim that high rates of suicidal behaviour amongst trans children is a myth, once again against the evidence. I fully understand the need for caution, and the Tavistock who do this work are cautious, but It would be nice if this stuff was challenged now before some kid tops themelf because their parents chose to listen to the rantings of Shiela Jeffreys rather than doctors and their own child.
  30. Sunset Tree

    Sunset Tree Well-Known Member

    A systematic review posted previously said evidence is generally of poor quality and robust conclusions can't be drawn

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