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We make our own reality

Well sometimes we find we have a different reality to that of our government for example.

Realities are just descriptions of the world around us, stories, I remember when the world was flat and it was much harder to get sailing ships to go fast as there was no downhill, nowerdays it is easier to go from top to bottom but coming back is harder :-)
 
fela fan said:
Yeah, but the thread's not about what reality is, rather, do we make our own.

Do you make your own mate?

... that seems to be a muddled statement

if we are not arguing about reality is then how can one possibly make their own?

unless you are talking about your experiance of reality which will be interpreted diffrently


as for me .... well i'm god innit...
 
Realities are just descriptions of the world around you, perhaps just the story of your life at one moment, one point in time.

This is a story, a reality, it will be incomplete and will contain errors, it may be totally untrue.

I hope it will not waste your time to read it.

But time is not money, it cannot be refunded so do not ask as a refusal may offend :-)

I am a small fit healthy black female Native Aboriginal Australian sitting under the stars by my fire in the red sands of the Northern Territory. I am smoking a peace pipe, in a civilised diplomatic way with my extended family. The peace pipe I am smoking is a fat brown Havana coiba cigar hand rolled on the sweating thighs of beautiful Cuban Virgins, at least that is what the Cuban couple who visited us told us. Near me large Salt Water Crocodiles are eating in the river while others laze on the banks, my sons are away hunting Kangaroos for dinner with their spears, and a large coiled Tiger snake is basking in the evening light as red backed spiders scuttle away from the heat of the fire.

My parents are sleeping nearby, snoring comfortably.

My brother left recently on a Boeing 747 apparently made in America to see for himself what all the excitement seems to be about in far off distant lands we have been told are called Israel, Palestine and Lebanon, someone said they had read something in a Newspaper about it, we have no newspapers so it was just conversation but after that he decided to seek adventure and travel there to see for himself.

He took 4 of our best Boomerangs to use as gifts for the locals when he arrives, walked to Darwin which took a couple of weeks, and traded 16 more Boomerangs for Airline Tickets. The enormous 747 Aeroplane he climbed into had red letters on the side "Singapore Airlines", we have no idea what that means. The next time we saw an Aeroplane it was much smaller and with "Japan Airlines" written on it. He worries it may be cold in Israel and Palestine and wonders if he should try to get more clothes.

We don’t need clothes because we are not ashamed of our skins.

Sometime, perhaps years later, my brother will probably return we hope at least, bringing something back for us, it may be a sniffle, a cold, it may be a wife and children, it may be some photographs taken with something called a Hasselblad we understand is very special but also very old and very cheap, he may be given one by someone at some point in his journey.

He might bring back Scottish Whiskey which we could drink while we smoke our Cuban cigars, burning the leaves of plants and inhaling the fumes which we enjoy, just as much as the smoky fire which keeps us warm.

Some white people from The United States of America recently visited us and told us very passionately that we are hurting our planet and theirs with our fire and cigars, the smoke from our fire will go into the air and make us hotter, and that these particular cigars are evil and bad because of where they come from. While explaining what the words evil and bad meant, they persuaded us to try their thinner white smokes called Marlboro, that we must be made to learn the error of our ways and think like they think. They tried to explain about something called the Ozone Layer to us which seemed very important to them, but after joining us, living with us for a few weeks, drinking the Vodka which some Russians had given us the previous year and smoking a couple of our Cuban cigars despite themselves, they became less serious, less earnest, forgot about their Ozone and have decided to stay and live with us. One of them has produced children with my sister.

Yesterday other foreigners visited and told us we had something called Uranium nearby in the ground and they wanted it. We knew it was there but have no use for it, we don't eat or wear uranium, we don't sleep near the uranium because we know where it is, always knew, we wake up with sores on our skins when we sleep there by mistake. We said we don't want it, in fact we don't even like it, you can have it. So they dug the Uranium, some of it, out of the ground and took it away. Good luck to them, we have no idea what they did with it, and it makes no difference to us. Our crocodiles and snakes and kangaroos are still here, we still have enormous tasty Barramundi fish in our rivers if we want to fish them out.

Some other foreigners from France arrived the week before last and offered us small shiny pieces of metal which they said were very important and valuable, we agreed they looked quite attractive so we took their gift which we now wear as earrings. I only need two, one for each ear, they called these pieces of metal the EURO, we just call them Jewellery.

In the years of my life so far, many very earnest individuals have come to meet us and tried to persuade us of something that was very important to them, many of them called themselves Missionaries and they told us about their Gods, we patiently listened because not to would have been impolite, some when they had finally realised that we do not want saving from ourselves, just went away on their own accord.

Other white people who arrived in wooden boats, wanted to make something they called a Prison here near us. They had decided that lots of people in their own country should not be allowed to live there anymore and they wanted to send these people who they described as "Evil Criminals" to their Prison next to us. Some of us were against this but these white people from Great Britain insisted and were very violent, so eventually we had no choice, they just did what they wanted.

Some years later all the evil criminal people expelled from Great Britain have been let out of those Australian British Prisons and are now living with us here on the same land, we argue, we discriminate, this is easy to do because they are white and we are black, they like to live in houses and drive cars and we do not, but we do now share the land, because we have no choice apart from total war and we know what that means.

Some nice Swiss people came to visit us 10 years ago and brought something they liked called Time, as a gift. They wore it on their wrists and it was quite a nice thing, the time they gave us was called Swatch. But then some others also gave us Timex. For a while they persuaded us it was important we always wear it and always wake up at the same Time, eat at the same Time and go to sleep at the same Time.

We indulged them for a while, but after they left we forgot to put our Swatch Time on because we already knew what time to wake, our Sun the big warm light in the sky comes up every day and always has as long as we can remember, and our dreamtime memories go back for generations, the heat from the sun has always waked us.

So we forgot to remember about the Swatch Time and have mislaid it somewhere. No matter we know we can live without it and without the time called Timex Time which really confused us, because Swatch Time and Timex Time were never quite the same so we did not really know when to Wake Sleep or Eat!

We decided we do not want time, it does nothing for us, the sun and the planet is more reliable and we do not have to wear it.

Someone called Tim Berners Lee or something came and visited politely and told us there was a new toy that was very important and we should have it and we should want it. It was called a Personal Computer from IBM with Software from Microsoft and a Broadband Internet connection from someone whose name I am afraid I have forgotten.

Well I have used it to write my thoughts down on.
I may continue to use it, I am not sure at the moment.

The only way to find out if there is ANY truth in this reality is to travel yourself to the Northern Territory of Australia and look with your own eyes and feel with your own senses.

It may be me, I may be posting from there, this may be my story, my reality.

It is JUST A STORY I wrote and perhaps all of our realities are JUST STORIES we write ourselves.
 
Shippou-Chan said:
... that seems to be a muddled statement

if we are not arguing about reality is then how can one possibly make their own?

unless you are talking about your experiance of reality which will be interpreted diffrently


as for me .... well i'm god innit...

No, not muddled at all mate. This thread is about who makes our own reality. Not about what reality is. How straightforward can that be?!
 
fela fan said:
On second thoughts, he may have been right if he was talking about politicians. They are the first to succumb to the temptations of power, and accordingly fuck things up for everybody else too.

The thing I think about political leaders is that they have to have a certain arrogance to think that their solutions to the way the rest of us live our lives are better than our own solutions for our own lives.

Personally I think because of this anyone standing for elected office should be disqualified from any position of influence in the public sector. I would prefer parliament be filled by ordinary people selected as Juries are selected.

Was it Marx who said "I would never join a club that would have me as a member"

fela fan said:
Unless we resist by refusing their reality and creating our own.

I do create my own, I am sure of that :-)

Oh I gave you a glimpse in that long post above :-)
 
People may construct there realities and those of people around them but its easy to think that some how gives us a some sort of individual subjective experience of the world equal to everyone elses. Some people are in a positionto be better able to construct realities both their own and those of people around them. It seems absurd that a starving child has the same ability to contsruct their reality or influence it in the same way as a politician, celebrity or businessman
 
weltweit said:
Personally I think because of this anyone standing for elected office should be disqualified from any position of influence in the public sector. I would prefer parliament be filled by ordinary people selected as Juries are selected.

Hey! I've been touting this for a few years now, good to see someone else on the ball ;) .

I've thus far thought that a six month term of office would be long enough. Civil servants provide the continuity.

The best advantage of politician by selection is that they don't have to be burdened by the need to lie and obfuscate in order to get elected.
 
CNT36 said:
It seems absurd that a starving child has the same ability to contsruct their reality or influence it in the same way as a politician, celebrity or businessman

Not absurd no. Same ability yes, same opportunity no.
 
fela fan said:
No, not muddled at all mate. This thread is about who makes our own reality. Not about what reality is. How straightforward can that be?!

how can what reality "is" be distinctly separate from how reality is "made"

the perception of reality can be different from the actuality of what one defines as reality but to change how some thing is made is to change the thing entirely
 
weltweit said:
in support of the argument that we make our own reality.

"We mould our dwellings and then our dwellings mould us"

Winston Churchill

In support of reality makes us, not vice versa:

"I don't like the drugs but the drugs like me."

Marilyn Manson
 
Blagsta said:
No, we don't make our own reality. What we do is interpret our own reality.


Next!

Well, that's true in as far as it goes. But do we get manipulated during that process of interpretation? In other words who is in control of the reality that we interpret? Which i think is what this thread was asking.
 
fela fan said:
Well, that's true in as far as it goes. But do we get manipulated during that process of interpretation? In other words who is in control of the reality that we interpret? Which i think is what this thread was asking.

Who is in control? well if we are sentient then we are, individuals, we must be no?

I think as children while we do explore our reality it is primarily shaped by parents and teachers, as we become adults it becomes our responsibility to decide what we accept as our reality and what we will discard as falsehoods or someone else's agenda.

We are always trying to make sense of the world around us, always redefining what is real, what we can believe in, what is fact or fiction, what we believe to be true, what we believe to be evidence.
 
Well, here's an example of how people can let their reality be shaped by others, namely politicians.

20 years ago, during ira times the population were urged to ignore terrorist actions by the ira and get on with their lives, not fearing them, and not letting them change their way of life.

Now it has been turned arse over tit. Now folk are urged to live in a constant state of fear, and can observe their way of life being turned over by those politicians.

Funny old world innit.
 
fela

No one is in control of the reality we intepret. What an odd question. :confused: Reality is out there and objective. It sounds like you're vaguely on about the Marxist concept of ideology and hegemony.
 
Blagsta said:
No one is in control of the reality we intepret. What an odd question. :confused: Reality is out there and objective. It sounds like you're vaguely on about the Marxist concept of ideology and hegemony.

So how do you explain away my example then? That is, that 20 years ago terrorism was something to be kind of courageous about, where we had the attitude of just carrying on with our lives, must not let the terrorists win by changing our ways.

Nowadays, terrorism is something to be feared, to worry about, to accept increased state interference in our lives, in the name of protecting us.

These are two different collective realities.

Supposing people individually approach terrorism in the way i've described, surely that means that politicians and/or media have influenced us on how we make our own reality?

I'll be back to answer your other points later.
 
Blagsta said:
No one is in control of the reality we intepret.

Okay, i'm back and i read this bit differently now. Yes, i think i can agree with this statement. But, following on from the post above i wrote earlier, the key question then becomes does anyone control our interpretations? My answer is potentially yes (maybe definitely yes, but not thought about it enough yet), as illustrated by my example.

So, if they can influence how we interpret things, then they do, indirectly, get to control and make and influence our reality. In other words, the answer to the thread is yes, we can make our own reality, but so can others, even if it's indirectly.
 
and there's more...

Blagsta said:
Reality is out there and objective. It sounds like you're vaguely on about the Marxist concept of ideology and hegemony.

I don't know what the latter is, so i can only have accidentally come close to it, if i have done. Dunno.

But as for what is, or isn't, objective, completely new direction, but one that i think belongs to the thread.

I personally think that the only objectivity is that which is non-human. In other words, take away the human part of this planet, and only then can you have objectivity. With humans there can only be subjectivity, of which we may achieve a fair degree of objectivity, but never 100%

Having said that, if humans can go beyond language and human-based systems and methodologies and so on, if they can tap into that world beyond humans, then they too can find objectivity. But i'd say no sooner than we use language to try and describe this than we enter the realms of subjectivty once more.
 
fela fan you make a lot of use of the words objective and subjective to describe what is and what is not reality.

Can you please explain what you mean by objective and subjective?
 
weltweit said:
fela fan you make a lot of use of the words objective and subjective to describe what is and what is not reality.

Can you please explain what you mean by objective and subjective?

From a human perspective, objectivity can be equated to observation, while subjectivity can be equated to judgment.

How the former is achieved is perhaps a key to many things in life. And personally speaking it is a key aspect of one's own success in life to avoid the latter as often as possible.
 
Aha well my observations about life and reality are then probably mainly objective while I reserve subjective judgements for questions like is there a god? where I appear to be unable to observe that there is.

I am not sure as to the value of "subjective" and "objective" surely one can only have a subjective judgement based on an objective observation, i.e. the trees are moving I observe objectively therefor subjectively I can assume the force that is moving the trees is wind, something that I cannot see.

Not really sure how this relates to reality, mine or someone elses.
 
weltweit said:
Aha well my observations about life and reality are then probably mainly objective while I reserve subjective judgements for questions like is there a god? where I appear to be unable to observe that there is.

I am not sure as to the value of "subjective" and "objective" surely one can only have a subjective judgement based on an objective observation, i.e. the trees are moving I observe objectively therefor subjectively I can assume the force that is moving the trees is wind, something that I cannot see.

Not really sure how this relates to reality, mine or someone elses.

And yet again we see the limitations of language, especially in the written form! At least with spoken communication we can keep up to speed.

Judgment as i talked about just above includes the element of values judgment. And that would preclude your wind example.

And to add, there is serious validation that objectivity and subjectivity are diffucult to separate, and that arguably there is no objectivity where humans are concerned.

Rather like time, there are always two sides to a coin, two types of everything! Duality i call it.

The path to a worthwhile life requires us to find answers that are not subject to duality, and therefore objectivity and subjectivity need something that splits them down the middle...

I know nothing, and i'm a nobody. It's the safest conclusion of the lot!
 
fela fan said:
Rather like time, there are always two sides to a coin, two types of everything! Duality i call it.

Hmm I may agree with you, I do think we tend to one side or the other on or off like a digital switch because that at the lowest level is all that our minds are, a big collection of digital switches.

Thus there is: Left Wing - Right Wing, Black - White, Men - Women, Red - Blue, Capitalism - Communism, Private Ownership - Public Ownership, Rich - Poor, Strong - Weak, Christians - Muslims, My God - Your God, etc etc

imho we tend to one extreme or another unless we are able to manage our minds in an analogue way rather than its natural tendency to digitize 1 or 0.

fela fan said:
The path to a worthwhile life requires us to find answers that are not subject to duality, and therefore objectivity and subjectivity need something that splits them down the middle...

I think the path to a worthwhile life starts when we challenge all the assumptions which have been given to us, when we become adult imo we become responsible for our own beliefs and the actions that flow from them.

Yes I agree with I think your earlier post that just sitting "being" can be just as valid as any "doing" and can make as valuable a contribution for example to world peace as marching off to some foreign land clutching a weapon and intending to right perceived wrongs.

fela fan said:
I know nothing, and i'm a nobody. It's the safest conclusion of the lot!

Oh I am not a nobody, but I am just a human animal no more no less, and no more or less significant than the smallest single grain of sand in the middle of the Gobi dessert.
 
weltweit said:
I think the path to a worthwhile life starts when we challenge all the assumptions which have been given to us, when we become adult imo we become responsible for our own beliefs and the actions that flow from them.

Yes I agree with I think your earlier post that just sitting "being" can be just as valid as any "doing" and can make as valuable a contribution for example to world peace as marching off to some foreign land clutching a weapon and intending to right perceived wrongs.



Oh I am not a nobody, but I am just a human animal no more no less, and no more or less significant than the smallest single grain of sand in the middle of the Gobi dessert.

We are but mere dots on the landscape of time is something i often say, and it sounds like your grain of sand.

Taking responsiblity for one's own actions is a prerequisite for being free. And yes, i challenge every single thing a politician says, and anyone else with an agenda. They're all out for intefering with my life instead of minding their own bloody business. Put them in a mountain with no-one around them and they soon become a nobody. It'll do them a power of good.

By being a nobody i mean this as a mindset. It is the opposite of trying to become a somebody. It means one can remain humble in life, a trait i'm particularly fond of.
 
fela fan said:
We are but mere dots on the landscape of time is something i often say, and it sounds like your grain of sand.

I love the grain of sand because though tiny and insignificant it can travel, it can enter the houses of the rich on the shoes on their feet or blow in through their windows, it can cluster with like minded grains on a beach and it can be made into the window that is near me now keeping the rain out or become the silicon in a computer. It is everything and nothing, and we can be the same.

fela fan said:
Taking responsiblity for one's own actions is a prerequisite for being free. And yes, i challenge every single thing a politician says, and anyone else with an agenda. They're all out for intefering with my life instead of minding their own bloody business. Put them in a mountain with no-one around them and they soon become a nobody. It'll do them a power of good.

Yes I am against the interference politicians do to their polulations, they make their own problems and then try to solve them all through interference.

fela fan said:
By being a nobody i mean this as a mindset. It is the opposite of trying to become a somebody. It means one can remain humble in life, a trait i'm particularly fond of.

Well I can be a nobody or a somebody, I am completely in charge of who or what I am, some natural restrictions notwithstanding, I have already had nothing and been able to be human, I have also had everything and still am able to remain human, and I have had it all taken from me and remained as human as I always was.

When we wake in the morning we can decide for ourselves what uniform, mental and physical we are going to wear each day. To do that is imho to be your own leader, and if you are your own leader you do not need elected leaders to tell you what to do in your life.

Imho we always knew how to look after ourselves, our familes, our neighbours and our guests, because humans do know these things.

How we define ourselves and then define who our familes, neighbours and guests are is what makes the difference to how we life our lives.

My definition of myself is: Human, animal, Origins: 90% Great Britain
 
It would be easy for people to misunderstand your use of the word "nobody" fela.

I think being a "nobody" whilst being self-actualized (self-realisation) is the form that most people are looking for in life. Being a "nobody" whilst realising one's self-worth. But that realisation of self-worth has to come about without external attachments. The mistake that people often make is attaching their self-worth to external objects, things like:

clothes, fashion, cars, job, money, status, career or even more deadly....... thier partners/spouses and their actions.

Once you realize your own true inner worth, the need to have props such as the above diminuishes. In fact you begin to realize that fact that the need for props such as the above to boost your self-esteem is in fact, all a plain load of bollocks.
Paradoxically there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a nice car, clothes, good job, earning a nice wage if that is what you want. Wealth is good, wealth is nice, but true wealth is really expressed by the power of one's mind, not of one's possessions. IMO!
 
NoEgo said:
It would be easy for people to misunderstand your use of the word "nobody" fela.

I'm certain you're right mate, i'm frequently misunderstood on these forums, but that's the handicap of the written form of communication, and for being an enlightened person (!!). Too slow in the too and fro.

So to clarify, to be a nobody means that you no longer concern yourself with what others think about you. You just live your own life and if folk don't like it, then so be it. Furthemore you claim no pretence over things, and humility rules in your underlying behaviour and demeanour.

As opposed to trying to be a somebody, eg getting successful in business, or becoming a movie star or pop star or supermodel, where you constantly have to consider carefully what you say and what you do in case it doesn't conform to the expectations that go with the territory.

Being a nobody is so much simpler than trying to be a somebody. Notice that the nobody just does, and just is, whereas the somebody is always trying...
 
fela fan said:
So to clarify, to be a nobody means that you no longer concern yourself with what others think about you. You just live your own life and if folk don't like it, then so be it. Furthemore you claim no pretence over things, and humility rules in your underlying behaviour and demeanour.

hmm, I see what you are saying but is it not also true to say that everybody already is a somebody. Be yourself you are somebody.

fela fan said:
As opposed to trying to be a somebody, eg getting successful in business, or becoming a movie star or pop star or supermodel, where you constantly have to consider carefully what you say and what you do in case it doesn't conform to the expectations that go with the territory.

but I enjoy business and yet I like your idea of a nobody, but I am I think a nobody and a somebody, I just wake up in the morning and .. I am .

fela fan said:
Being a nobody is so much simpler than trying to be a somebody. Notice that the nobody just does, and just is, whereas the somebody is always trying...

But nobody is somebody, everybody is somebody even nobody is somebody?

When you see a person driving a Ferrari down the street, what do you see?

I just see - a person driving a Ferrari down the street.
 
weltweit said:
But nobody is somebody, everybody is somebody even nobody is somebody?

When you see a person driving a Ferrari down the street, what do you see?

I just see - a person driving a Ferrari down the street.

It's all a question of intent weltweit. Intention.

Yes, i too would see a person driving a ferrari. And if the person is a cool bastard, then they would be just a ferrari driver. And i if i was feeling uncharitable, i'd see them as a show-off. But that would only reflect badly on me.

But if they're looking for plaudits and kudos and the need to feed the ego, then who they are is different to who you see them as. They're trying to be a somebody.

The acid test is: do you prefer to be a somebody, or do you prefer to be a nobody?

Being the latter can include the former, but being the former excludes being the latter. That is the meaning i talk of!
 
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