We have the technology to make driverless cars a reality

[8ball]

Remove the traffic lights and road markings and make drivers think for themselves.

I saw that Newsnight thing too - was very thought-provoking.

There's a nightmare junction near me and the lights broke the other day and I was amazed that they filtered through without getting snarled up - normally when someone is a millisecond late taking off from the lights there's a chorus of angry beeping but without the lights they managed to just get on with it.

There may have been a big smash as soon as I was round the corner but I like the anecdote and I'm sticking with it.

 

[weltweit]

... My personal experience is that eighteen months working from a bedroom without colleagues, human contact, strip lighting, bad coffee or pointless meetings deranges the mind and corrupts the soul.

You aint kidding, I have been doing it for something like 6 years and I have actually had mental health issues that some professionals think may be a result, interacting with or only via a computer all the time and never or rarely face to face. Why are we on here (urban)? looking for some personal interaction, because we don't get the normal human interaction of an office or the suchlike. Homeworking in small doses, a couple of days a week I have no issues with but long term IMHO its a no no.

 

[cybertect]

Time for robotic bicycles too?

Or robotic trains or robotic horses?

 

[8ball]

I was very disappointed that the link didn't lead to an article featuring a robot horse

 

[cybertect]

sorry 'bout that.

Try this (but don't tell Catharine the Great )

 

[Badgers]

Odd one.

Anything like this (if ever implemented) will take a very long time to really impact.

Also what do you do with all the cars currently on the road?
If I had an Aston Martin in my garage could I still drive it on the roads with all the robots? Where would it go?

 

[weltweit]

wrt the unmanned vehicles used by the US presently I think a lot of the drones armed or for observation are just updated versions of radio controlled planes albeit able to operate over much larger distances and for much longer periods of time. imo there is still a remote operator flying the aircraft and deciding when to launch a weapon.

What I think is more interesting are things like cruise missiles. afaikt they use GPS but also have three dimensional ground maps to enable them to fly low. Indeed iirc there was a reporter in one of the hotels in Bagdad who said that he witnessed a cruise missile flying at below the level of the floor he was on and that it seemed to be navigating its way through the streets. Could be all bull.

Where the US is doing very interesting things is in sensors and detectors which they are dropping from aircraft. Very interesting stuff going on there imo.

 

[weltweit]

Oh I believe the latest Mercedes S class (a vehicle that has had many new safety devices as firsts) has automatic hazard detection and automatic emergency braking. I assume though that it is probably a feature you can turn off.

 

[subversplat]

Having seen the balls-up that GPS has done with sending people down one-way streets and over foot turnstiles, I don't hold out much hopes for autocars.

Being able to legally drive pissed up would be great though!

 

[Crispy]

http://video.google.com/url?docid=5...ndex=0&usg=AL29H228EZrZbEeHb0dav7L0OpzOEsY8kg

This is the state of the art, AFAIK.

Cobbles - road conditions are already catered for in your car. Traction control, ABS etc.

 

[Cobbles]

Cobbles - road conditions are already catered for in your car. Traction control, ABS etc.

There's no traction control on my car and the ABS is about as good as human cadence braking.

In order to adjust vehicle speed/spacing to allow more room for manouvering in poor conditions, the on-board system would need to be aware of road conditions. What array of sensors would be needed to be built in to the road surface to work out the combined effect of an oil spill and light drizzle on a bend 200 metres ahead? 1 Magi-sensor per sq metre?, 10 magi-sensors per square metre?

Clarkson's remote lap of course took place on a closed race circuit under ideal conditions; aeroplanes on autopilot don't operate at the frequency of traffic on, say, the M5 on a Friday afternoon.

As for DARPA's "race" - Boss successfully drove around an urban environment [simulated], avoiding other cars, and covering 60 miles (85km) in less than six hours, all without any human control.

60 miles in 6 hours - woweee

Out of the 6 robot vehicles, 3 were involven in collisions, one with a high speed simulated shop front..........

 

[Crispy]

This is only the beginning.

 

[Cobbles]

This is only the beginning.

Wasn't that what tecchies said about Betamax?

 

[Crispy]

What sort of comparison is that?

 

[untethered]

Interesting segment in newsnight last night or a couple of nights ago about this. An experiment has been tried in a city centre in Scandinavia somewhere where all the road signals and signs have been removed. Now it is quite acceptable there to walk in the road, no one has right of way, everyone has to proceed with caution and respect for other road users. No accidents at all since it was installed. You should have seen the chap from London transport or the ilk cringing at the suggestion that current road and junction controls may actually not be helping!
Twas very interesting.

In fact, facets of this idea are already gaining support in London and elsewhere in the UK. Removing guard railing, encouraging informal crossings, reducing driver "certainty" about a supposedly predictable environment all contribute to lower speeds and greater overall safety.

The current problem is that streets are designed for the efficient and supposedly safe flow of vehicles. Once you start to factor in other road users, ideas about what might be the best change dramatically.

 

[weltweit]

Betamax?

Betamax was beaten by VHS

The telex machine was beaten by the Fax, the fax is being beaten (or perhaps has been beaten) by email.

The race to provide technological solutions to human problems continues with competing technologies all vying for first place.

The reversing sensors in most cars these days are made by Bosch, a company that had previously no history with ultrasonic sensors. They created (much to the chagrin of competing ultrasonic sensor makers) a very suitable and well performing device for the reversing sensing application from a standing start. Other people were also trying to solve the reversing object / hazard detection issue with all sorts of techniques including optical sensing, radar and capacitive sensing.

Bosch and ultrasonic won that particular race - for the time being.

 

[Roadkill]

Wasn't that what tecchies said about Betamax?

In fairness, Betamax failed not because of its own technical limitations but because VHS had already cornered the market. This is a different situation. The technology for automatic cars hasn't been perfected at all yet, by anyone.

There are, as some have pointed out, electronic driver aids such as traction control and ABS: as you yourself rightly point out, ABS is no better (and in some circumstances worse) than standard brakes used by a skilled driver. Nor are they all integrated on any but the most sophisticated and expensive cars, let alone integrated with satnav and the umpteen sensors that would be needed for electronic observation of road and traffic conditions to replace 'the nut behind the wheel.'

Meanwhile, although people have built automatic cars that can circulate a test track under controlled conditions, getting them to manage the many complex situations requiring sudden action that arise in real-world driving conditions is a long way off.

 

[untethered]

Cars: we don't have the energy to keep building them, fuelling them and disposing of them. We don't have the space to build the roads, car parks and garages to move and store them.

We need a better plan. Not one that involves supposedly greener, cheaper, safer cars but one that recognises that it's a fundamentally bad idea that's had its day.

 

[The Groke]

There are a lot more people in my picture than yours. Think about it.

Mine was way cooler though.

 

[The Groke]

So what was that again about the freedom to drive?? you w~~kers!

Calm down dear, you're frothing.....


Some people are bad/careless/dangerous drivers. Many are not

*shrugs*

 

[The Groke]

Cars: we don't have the energy to keep building them, fuelling them and disposing of them. We don't have the space to build the roads, car parks and garages to move and store them.

We need a better plan. Not one that involves supposedly greener, cheaper, safer cars but one that recognises that it's a fundamentally bad idea that's had its day.

Until I get my personal jetpack, I am sticking with the car...

 

[Detroit City]

Driverless vehicles are about thinking outside the box; if you always ask the same people the same questions, driverless cars will remain an afterthought.

actually, I sort of enjoy driving myself about.

 

[Cobbles]

Betamax was beaten by VHS

Exactly - although Betamax was supposed to offer better picture quality etc., there just wasn't a market for it as the studios couldn't be bothered to provide media in 2 separate formats. Betamax was a technological solution to a problem that didn't exist.

In the same way, there is no market for self driving cars. Although some bits of the technology (e.g. radar activated brakes) may be better than a human driver, there just isn't the money to put the massive infrastructure in place to implement the whole shebang so it'll never happen.

 

[Crispy]

But this article specifically says

The difficult parts of all this include moving away from the thinking of transport experts who predict intelligent roads, which would tell drivers and eventually cars what to do - a lucrative future that roadbuilding companies are planning.

This means cars on unmodified roads, using sensors and computers to navigate and respond to situations.

It is not a VHS-Beta situation. It is a VHD-DVD-Bluray situation, except we're just at the beginning of the process.

If I had a choice of two cars, one of which would drive me home after a night on the piss, I'd choose that one.

 

[weltweit]

... If I had a choice of two cars, one of which would drive me home after a night on the piss, I'd choose that one.

I must say, despite initial feelings to the contrary, I might choose that one also.

My current car is quite old and does not have any drivers aids, my previous car (a company car) had ABS & ASR and on one occassion when I had got it wrong the ABS came to my aid and was definately better than my own braking would have been on what was a very slippery surface.

I was once on a field of wet grass in that car and decided to test both the ASR & ABS. I first put my foot flat down on the accelerator and we accellerated and progressed across the field at quite a rate with absolutely no slipping. Then I put my foot flat down on the brake and the same happenned in reverse, we slowed quickly and elegantly again with no skidding.

I am quite a fan of cruise control also, in the right circs ..





However that does not change my list of favourite vehicles which I would like one day to own, they include the Vincent Black Shadow motorcycle, a 1000cc V twin and in its day the fastest motorbike in the world, no driver aids to speak of at all and girder forks for suspension! Also early Bugatti race/road cars with their spindly motorcycle type wheels and external gear levers, amazing machines and quick, even by today's standards.

 

[Cobbles]

But this article specifically says


This means cars on unmodified roads, using sensors and computers to navigate and respond to situations.

It is not a VHS-Beta situation. It is a VHD-DVD-Bluray situation, except we're just at the beginning of the process.

If I had a choice of two cars, one of which would drive me home after a night on the piss, I'd choose that one.

Unfortunately the technology isn't even at the VHS state yet, more like at the flick book stage.

 

[roryer]

Remove the traffic lights and road markings and make drivers think for themselves.

Interesting segment in newsnight last night or a couple of nights ago about this. An experiment has been tried in a city centre in Scandinavia somewhere where all the road signals and signs have been removed. Now it is quite acceptable there to walk in the road, no one has right of way, everyone has to proceed with caution and respect for other road users. No accidents at all since it was installed.

Twas very interesting.

Yep, I agree, I like to believe that residential areas will be transformed by this approach, and take a look at any new developments and you can already see it happening here too.

It is all based on the Woonerfs, which are a group of streets in a town or city where pedestrians and cyclists have legal priority over motorists, which started in Holland on many resdiential streets since the 1970's.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf )

The basic idea behind it is of shared space, where the distinction between road, pavement, playground for children is blurred. No traffiic signals or lines on the road means that drivers understand that it is likely the children might run in front of them at any time, thus this sense of risk means they drive slowley.

It sounds dangerous, but a good example we can all relate to is the campsite, how many cars actually race through them at 30mph?

A similar approach can be has also been tried successfully on quite high volume roads junctions too, in England Kensignton High Street is the most high profile scheme that borrows on this philosphy.

The recently published DfT Manual for Streets now advises transport planners and engineers to incorporate these ideas into all new developments.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/sustainable/manforstreets/mfssummary.pdf

If you are interested in learning more, in this country Ben Hamillton-Bailie is one of the leading proponents. A simple introduction to the progress of street design can be found here.
http://www.hamilton-baillie.co.uk/papers/What is shared space.pdf

Having said that I still like to believe that the private car will soon be be a thing of the past. robot controlled vehicles will shuttle us along arterial roads at high speed, which like train tracks will be mostly segregated from other road users, but perhaps when they come into contact with other road users like pedestrians and cyclists, they could be self driven but limited to speeds of 5mph. They would of course have to be publicly owned.

Anyway, intresting as it may be, developing visions for the future are always difficult, but one thing we can be sure of is that 30 years from now transport will not be the same as today.

 

[Yossarian]

I think it's going to take a long time to break down people's resistance to driverless cars even if they do become a reality - don't DLR trains have always some token human sitting in there pushing buttons because people are afraid of getting in driverless transport?

 

[Crispy]

I think it's going to take a long time to break down people's resistance to driverless cars even if they do become a reality - don't DLR trains have always some token human sitting in there pushing buttons because people are afraid of getting in driverless transport?

Yep. I've seen exactly what he does. He pushes the 'close doors' button. That's it. He doesn't even have to. The button is in a locked panel, with other manual overrides.

I think the victoria line is capable of automatic running too, but don't quote me.

 

[Roadkill]

DLR trains don't always have a 'driver' on board. There often is someone operating the doors and keeping an eye on things, but not always. There's more often someone there in the evenings, presumably for security reasons, and sometimes they will operate the doors or even drive the train manually (which is rather interesting to watch), but by no means always.

The Victoria Line is pretty much entirely automatic as well. Someone even more anoraky than me lent me a 1974 London Transport publicity booklet on how it works, which as far as I can tell (and I can't make head or tail of the circuit diagrams!) is via coded track circuits that tell the train where it is in relation to the next signal. The driver is basically just a guard with the ability to make an emergency stop, although AFAIK the automatic controls can be overridden and trains driven manually.

Tbh, though, in technological terms an automated railway is a long way from fully automated cars...