Was Charles de Gaulle right?

[Bigdavalad]

As an example, the National Audit Office OK'd the Army's biggest ever truck order from the German firm MAN. That better trucks could have been bought from British/US suppliers did not appear to get in the way of the decision. There are lots of illustrations like this.

MAN were the only company that bid on the contract.

 

[goneforlunch]

MAN were the only company that bid on the contract.

And I wonder why that was!

 

[mauvais]

Continental European contractors are often given preference over British, and certainly over US contractors, by the MOD. European defence ministers recently confirmed moves to create a "European defence industry". In practice this means that we spend billions supporting other European suppliers when equipment from British or US suppliers is superior and cheaper.

It's a bit bonkers - BAE bid against themselves recently. Airbus and Boeing are competing for new refuelling tanker contracts, and BAE decided they were going to work with Boeing. This is despite them having a 20% stake in Airbus, and the Airbus plan being generally stronger and IMO more likely to be a success, even with the USAF.

 

[oi2002]

I'd say it is impossible to gauge the true strength, and nature, of feelings of people in various corners of this notedly diverse and unhomogenous nation-state, as they have been lost beneath fiften million cubic miles of sound, wind, piss, fury, hysteria and general bullshit from the prostituted pens of the incestuous metropolitan meejah.

I'd say the whole Atlantic Archepeligo is often percieved as one homogenous culture (and a pretty alien one) when viewed from the continent. This isn't accurate of course but the base (in several senses) Estuary English culture tends to obscure the others. One tea drinking, chip loving, English speaking people obsessed with gardening, football and the weather.

On the other side of the Channel few seem to realise that continental nations generally have even stronger regional identities than exist in the UK.

 

[kyser_soze]

Define integration - if it's about how many people visit the mainland, or how obedient the UK is to EU legislation and the speed it's implemented in UK law, then the UK beats France hands down on most issues, so just because the Euro and Schengen agreement haven't been signed, these aren't the only indicators of how 'integrated' the UK is.

And de Gaulle DID see the UK as a threat - the whole basis of Europe in the 60s was the Franco-German axis, heavily weighted toward the 'Franco' bit when it came to policy making. Besides, de Gaulle had issues with the UK generally speaking going back to WW2 and the his refulsal to integrate the Free French forces fully into the Allied command structure.

So no, I don't think he was right - the British might not have the same idea of 'Europeaness' as some EU nations (and most French describe themselves as 'French' before 'European') but to say that we're 'not suited' simply because as an island culturally we've developed as a very separate entity to the rest of the EU is piffle.

 

[Streathamite]

huuuuge sweeping generalisations there, and not borne out by my experience, but its' true that rather too many Brits make a virtue out of their ignorance of the diversity of certain european nations.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Actually...

the point isn't whether de Gaulle (a chancer who sailed to power on the reputation of others) was 'right', but whether the UK should be fully incorporated into the developing European Imperial State. The answer to which is Non!

 

[oi2002]

...So no, I don't think he was right - the British might not have the same idea of 'Europeaness' as some EU nations (and most French describe themselves as 'French' before 'European') but to say that we're 'not suited' simply because as an island culturally we've developed as a very separate entity to the rest of the EU is piffle.

What I don't doubt is De Gaulle's hostility to The Island is more strongly echoed in the population now than in 50s. I've worked among French and Germans for twenty years over here and London is often seen as engaging in the European project so grudgingly as to be effectively a spoiler. It's easy to push them into paranoia by telling them that's slippery London's plan.

There is a basic acceptance over here that the EU is a grand political project whatever shape it takes in the end; this has never existed as a popular idea in England where it's always weakly sold as an economic institution. Actually what's really annoying is the Scots traditionally and more recently the Irish have a far more European mindset than the Frogphobic English. This despite Ireland's crazed embrace of the neo-liberal project.

You're entirely correct about London's zealous implementation of badly drawn Brussels rulings. It's often forgotten the the UK is the source of much of it, being a close seconds to Germans in crafting EU legislation and the two countries together account for 30% of new law. One thing I've noticed since leaving the UK is that even the Germans bridle at the level of diligent petty officiousness that Brit's stoically accept.

 

[kyser_soze]

One thing I've noticed since leaving the UK is that even the Germans bridle at the level of diligent petty officiousness that Brit's stoically accept.

Which is amazing for a country in which one of the Lander (can't find the umlaut) tells you which days of the week you can hang your washing outside!!

 

[oi2002]

Which is amazing for a country in which one of the Lander (can't find the umlaut) tells you which days of the week you can hang your washing outside!!

You can get in trouble just putting a gnome in your garden.

Incidentally if you fancy laundry officiousness try California. Some counties have a blanket ban on washing lines, even during the power cuts induced by Enron's price gouging you had to use a driers.

 

[MikeMcc]

It's a bit bonkers - BAE bid against themselves recently. Airbus and Boeing are competing for new refuelling tanker contracts, and BAE decided they were going to work with Boeing. This is despite them having a 20% stake in Airbus, and the Airbus plan being generally stronger and IMO more likely to be a success, even with the USAF.

They did the same thing with the new fighter (JSF?), they went into fairly serious partnerships with BOTH bidders - nothing like ensuring your on the winning side!

 

[kyser_soze]

In fairness to BAE tho, they are limited by the USGs refusal to even contemplate allowing forgeign suppliers anywhere near there precious toys since so they're having to straddle Airbus and various SVs in the US in order to stay in the US market.