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was capitalism inevitable?

I'm interested in this (want to read Arrighi's book) - why did development not take place along these lines elsewhere? And is it possible to imagine post-capitalist "complex market trade"?

Apparently this is the essential recent work but not read it myself: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/6823.html
The Great Divergence brings new insight to one of the classic questions of history: Why did sustained industrial growth begin in Northwest Europe, despite surprising similarities between advanced areas of Europe and East Asia? As Ken Pomeranz shows, as recently as 1750, parallels between these two parts of the world were very high in life expectancy, consumption, product and factor markets, and the strategies of households. Perhaps most surprisingly, Pomeranz demonstrates that the Chinese and Japanese cores were no worse off ecologically than Western Europe. Core areas throughout the eighteenth-century Old World faced comparable local shortages of land-intensive products, shortages that were only partly resolved by trade.

Pomeranz argues that Europe's nineteenth-century divergence from the Old World owes much to the fortunate location of coal, which substituted for timber. This made Europe's failure to use its land intensively much less of a problem, while allowing growth in energy-intensive industries. Another crucial difference that he notes has to do with trade. Fortuitous global conjunctures made the Americas a greater source of needed primary products for Europe than any Asian periphery. This allowed Northwest Europe to grow dramatically in population, specialize further in manufactures, and remove labor from the land, using increased imports rather than maximizing yields. Together, coal and the New World allowed Europe to grow along resource-intensive, labor-saving paths.

Meanwhile, Asia hit a cul-de-sac. Although the East Asian hinterlands boomed after 1750, both in population and in manufacturing, this growth prevented these peripheral regions from exporting vital resources to the cloth-producing Yangzi Delta. As a result, growth in the core of East Asia's economy essentially stopped, and what growth did exist was forced along labor-intensive, resource-saving paths--paths Europe could have been forced down, too, had it not been for favorable resource stocks from underground and overseas.
Read a couple of derivative essays tho and he's very good on seeing the China/Europe comparison on a continental level. He identifies what he calls 'sprouts of capitalism' in China, but AFAICT is more in the school of the Cambridge economic historians than political analysis:
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showpdf.php?id=4476
Building on regional socioeconomic studies of imperial China, Pomeranz methodically bats down five categories of arguments for European uniqueness, referring to demography, markets, luxury consumption, labor, and ecology. In each case, he carefully teases out which differences matter. For example, many credit the much touted European demographic system, featuring late marriage, low percent married, but unrestricted fertility within marriage, with keeping down European populations. Asians, by contrast, were viewed as breeding heedlessly because of early and universal marriage. But, fertility control within marriage kept Chinese populations below their maximum, too, ensuring them life expectancies equal or greater than most of Europe, and roughly comparable standards of living. The special European demographic structure was not, in the end, economically signicant.
Allocation of capital, labor, and land by competitive markets in China was if anything freer than in Europe. Imperial China, by and large, had free labor, substantial migration, frequent land sales, and enforceable property rights, which allowed efficient resource use, while even in the most modern parts of Europe, entailment restricted land sales, and urban guilds restricted craftsmen. In the rest of Europe, much more severe controls, from apprenticeship to serfdom, severely constrained investment and kept urban-rural income gaps high. Given these barriers, it is hard to make a case that income inequalities were any larger in China than in comparable regions
of Europe.

Though really, not sure why all these so-called 'historians' bother - we don't need facts and analysis - Derf has it all worked out with his closely argued assertions about fundamental human nature, which in no way come across as a sort of pseudo-religious bollocks :D
 
I think most people when they say capitalism they just mean a montetary system. Seems to be a failure to understand that a necessary requisite of capitalism, is that society that utilises theories of capital. Of course a montetary system is inevietable, what is money but a numerical quantification of value? Capitalism however is not inevitable in the slightlest, if anything it is a peversion of a montetary system.
 
yes



No. So why am I wrong?
Did the human race never have tribal chiefs, kings or other leaders?
They were ahead of the rest in power so please explain why they are any different from today's capitalists.
The serfs of today have only changed their name to workers. Still the same underlings to a king of a company.

Wow. You want to do away with the beard, grow a hefty mustache instead, might suit you more...

nietzsche.jpg
 
The answer is yes and always will be regardless of what social experiments anyone does.
Except, of course, that we existed without modern capitalism for thousands of years, arguably into the 18th century, which is hardly an argument for inevitability.
By the way, you do realise that the whole "historical inevitability argument" is ultimately a Marxist argument, don't you? ;)
It's human nature to be the best at whatever they can and anyone that tries to change that is flogging a dead horse.
I hate to tell you this, but "naturalisation" arguments, where you refer to something being a function of human nature, are universally derided by anyone who isn't an adherent of socio-biology/biological determinism. To quote one of the characters in Jane Eyre (that's a book by Charlotte Bronte, by the way :)): "...are we not then, to improve on human nature?". If people realised this essential truth that we're not slaves of our nature 200 years ago, why do you insist we're still slaves to it even now?
 
Isn't the essence of Capitalism in the Interest system? Without Interest, you have a buy/selll economies with private ownership that could be described as commercialist, but not Capitalist?

I'm askin, not asserting btw.

Interest preceded capitalism by several millennia, I believe.
 
Because capitalism is about 'the one'. It's human nature to be on top.
What are you going to do next, have races where all the runners have to go at the same speed?
One will always be faster than the rest.

Capitalism is, at base, about accumulation, whether that's mindless accumulation or accumulation with a purpose (which is usually to facilitate more accumulation).
 
Have you read the Arrighi book Jim?

No, I've done my usual bar-room bullshitter's trick of reading some reviews and I did watch a long video of him and David Harvey plus some other guy debating it: http://www.archive.org/details/2640Arrighi

ETA: Apparently one of the consequences of the Pomeranz book was to renew interest in Marx's arguments about the 'Asian mode of production' - not sure if they included Arrighi in that

And another edit: Have got four chapters of it in PDF that were downloadable from a website set up for a memorial conference for yer man: http://madrid2009arrighi.blogspot.com/ Not read them yet. Maybe do it tonight and report back.
 
Is it possible to imagine a post-capitalist society where markets exist but the accumulation of capital does not govern the totality of social relations?

How does the accumulation of capital ever govern the totality of social relations? Sociology/psychology 101 should tell you that no social relation can ever be governed by a single cause.

Tell me, do we procreate in order to satisfy the putative demands of capital? Do I play footie in the park in order to satisfy the putative demands of capital? Etc etc.
 
a) he certainly strongly implies it in my reading
b) how are 1) the formations of pair bonding resulting in reproduction and 2) group play not instances of social relations?
 
In my basic understanding of Economics it seems that for a country to benefit from international trade a market based economy is required - by that I mean in this instance that prices need to be set through an interaction of supply and demand.

Of course I understand that there are many restrictions on international trade, but where prices are set by a centrally planned economy international trade with countries with different pricing systems become a nonsense.

For example the state prices oil at an artificially low price - this oil is used to grow a crop for export. The crop may be traded at a profit but as a loss is being made on oil used to produce the crop.

Therefore if you want your economy to benefit from international trade there are big pressures to ensure your economy is market based - is price set by supply and demand. It seems to me that as economies become increasingly interdependent, and if you want to benefit from international trade, there are pressures to move to a market based economy.

I don't know if a market based economy means that you have a capitalist system, but they certainly seem interlinked to me.
 
Found a couple of salient passages in Arrighi's Chap. 11, which seems to be pretty much the same as this article here: http://www.japanfocus.org/-Giovanni-Arrighi/2630
Chinese development before 1300 falls beyond the scope of our investigation. For our purposes suffice to say that available evidence, including Elvin’s, gives credibility to Christopher Chase-Dunn’s and Thomas Hall’s contention that capitalism “nearly occurred first” in Song China. [43] As previously noted, tendencies that became typical of the European capitalist path in the “extended” sixteenth century were already present in China under the Song and the Yuan. Be that as it may, the slowdown in Chinese growth after 1300 can be interpreted as a first entrapment in a high level equilibrium–as Smith himself appears to do when he claims that China “had perhaps, even long before [Marco Polo’s] time, acquired that full complement of riches which the nature of its laws and institutions permits it to acquire.” [44]

This interpretation, however, clashes with the remarkable economic growth that Sugihara calls the “Chinese miracle” of the eighteenth century. Major differences in the man-land ratio between the core regions of East Asia and those of Western Europe before 1800—claims Sugihara—were both cause and effect of an unprecedented and unparalleled East Asian Industrious Revolution. By developing labor-absorbing institutions and labor-intensive technologies in response to natural resource constraints (especially scarcity of land), East Asian states experienced a major increase in population accompanied, not by a deterioration, but by a modest improvement in the standard of living. This escape from Malthusian checks was especially remarkable in China, whose population had previously risen several times to a ceiling of 100-150 million only to fall, whereas by 1800 it rose to nearly 400 million. “This was clearly a world demographic landmark and its impact on world GDP far outweighed that of post-industrial revolution Britain, whose share of world GDP in 1820 was less than 6 percent.” The “Chinese miracle” was replicated on a smaller territorial scale in Japan, where population growth was less explosive than in China but the improvement in standard of living more significant. [45]
As figure 1 shows, the East Asian share of world GDP did in fact increase further for almost half a century after the beginning of the British Industrial Revolution. If China had entered a stationary state ca. 1300 or earlier, what accounts for this new upswing of economic growth? Did the state-and-national-economy-making activities of the Ming and early Qing, and the rise under the latter of “an essentially new type of rural society,” not help at all in freeing China from the high-level equilibrium trap?

Three considerations help in answering these questions. First, the tendency of labor-intensive economic growth to get stuck in a high-level equilibrium trap does not rule out the existence of even higher equilibria, attainable through suitable changes in the geographical and institutional environment in which the economy is embedded. Second, the eighteenth-century Chinese economic “miracle” can best be interpreted as a shift of the economy from a high to an even higher equilibrium, due primarily to changes in the institutional and geographical environment brought about by Ming and Qing policies. Third, despite this upward shift, market-based development in China moved in a different direction than in Europe, becoming less, rather than more, capitalist in orientation.

The capitalist character of market-based development is not determined by the presence of capitalist institutions and dispositions but by the relation of state power to capital. Add as many capitalists as you like to a market economy, but unless the state has been subordinated to their class interest, the market economy remains non-capitalist. [46] Fernand Braudel himself takes imperial China as the example that “most opportunely supports [his] insistence on separating the market economy and capitalism.” Not only did China “have a solidly-established market economy... with its chains of local markets, its swarming population of small artisans and itinerant merchants, its busy shopping streets and urban centers.” In addition, the merchants and bankers of Shanxi province and the overseas Chinese originating from Fujian and other southern coastal provinces closely resembled the business communities that constituted the preeminent capitalist organizations of sixteenth century Europe. And yet, the state’s “unmistakable hostility to any individual making himself ‘abnormally’ rich” meant that “there could be no capitalism, except within certain clearly-defined groups, backed by the state, supervised by the state and always more or less at its mercy.”
 
a) he certainly strongly implies it in my reading
b) how are 1) the formations of pair bonding resulting in reproduction and 2) group play not instances of social relations?

I think that your reading is wrong then. Articul8 will have to clarfiy though.

Well, if you're arguing that capitalism has had or has no impact on the family or sexual reproduction then i think the changes in structure and behaviour over the last 300 years speak for themselves. But you talked about you as a single individual. I think here you confirm the case that capitalism has an effect on your first example of a social relation on which you say it doesn't. Second example, the provsion of public spaces, the opportunites for leisure, the enchroament of work into 'free time' etc are again, all heavily influenced by capital and the social relations it entails, Your case only has a chance when you reduce it down to your own indivual desire and ignore the context in which those desires are played out. It doesn't say or tell us very much.
 
No, I've done my usual bar-room bullshitter's trick of reading some reviews and I did watch a long video of him and David Harvey plus some other guy debating it: http://www.archive.org/details/2640Arrighi

Wasn't saying you were wrong or anything, just wondering due to your probably unique postion on this thread in being in what he argues is/was non-capitalist market economy and having lived in a western market capitalist society.
 
In my basic understanding of Economics it seems that for a country to benefit from international trade a market based economy is required - by that I mean in this instance that prices need to be set through an interaction of supply and demand...

Utterly rubbished by the Chinese/East Asian experience - international trade and the tributary system served an entirely different purpose - tributary trade missions like Zheng He's actually cost the Chinese state money but achieved other goals in terms of state presitge, political stability etc.
ETA: There was a fascinating bit in the part I just read that has some bad timing in the Ming state withdrawing from the south sea trade just as they were in a technological/military position to dominate it - they didn't care and wanted to develop the inland agricultural economy. Muslim merchants from SE Asia weren't in a position to fill the gap, which left it wide open to the arriving Western powers of the Dutch and English East India companies etc.
 
Wasn't saying you were wrong or anything, just wondering due to your probably unique postion on this thread in being in what he argues is/was non-capitalist market economy and having lived in a western market capitalist society.

Oh I know - I was just being 'honest before the class' :D
 
I think that your reading is wrong then. Articul8 will have to clarfiy though.

Well, if you're arguing that capitalism has had or has no impact on the family or sexual reproduction then i think the changes in structure and behaviour over the last 300 years speak for themselves. But you talked about you as a single individual. I think here you confirm the case that capitalism has an effect on your first example of a social relation on which you say it doesn't. Second example, the provsion of public spaces, the opportunites for leisure, the enchroament of work into 'free time' etc are again, all heavily influenced by capital and the social relations it entails, Your case only has a chance when you reduce it down to your own indivual desire and ignore the context in which those desires are played out. It doesn't say or tell us very much.

I'm not arguing that capitalism has no impact on the family, play or indeed any other social relation. Quite the contrary. I am arguing that my examples, even if one of them was couched in the first person, are common-place and indubitable examples of social relations. And I am further arguing that, contra the assertion I see the OP making, the role played by socioeconomic factors, whether they're structured by capitalist economical-political norms and institutions or not, is but one among many other causal variables that needs to be taken account of.

I think the onus is on you to explain how for example kids' play is primarily determined by capitalism. It's not exactly blindingly obvious to me how group processes taking place as a bunch of kids are playing hide and seek is an outcome of capitalism.
 
I'm not arguing that capitalism has no impact on the family, play or indeed any other social relation. Quite the contrary. I am arguing that my examples, even if one of them was couched in the first person, are common-place and indubitable examples of social relations. And I am further arguing that, contra the assertion I see the OP making, the role played by socioeconomic factors, whether they're structured by capitalist economical-political norms and institutions or not, is but one among many other causal variables that needs to be taken account of.

I think the onus is on you to explain how for example kids' play is primarily determined by capitalism. It's not exactly blindingly obvious to me how group processes taking place as a bunch of kids are playing hide and seek is an outcome of capitalism.

No it's really not, there is no onus on me to refute a crude model that you've imputed to someone else who doesn't even agree with it - and nor do i for that matter.

More directly, when you remove your examples from the individual to the social level, when you emphasise that they are social relations you also highlight how they've been impacted and shaped by the development of the capitalist system. That's undeniable - and it doesn entail them being directly 100% determined. As i say, you've undermined your original post and added a crude vulgar-marxist strawman to the pot.
 
The answer is yes and always will be regardless of what social experiments anyone does.
It's human nature to be the best at whatever they can and anyone that tries to change that is flogging a dead horse.

Why does this imply capitalism? Is it possible to divorce what is meant by "the best" from social context?
 
It's not exactly blindingly obvious to me how group processes taking place as a bunch of kids are playing hide and seek is an outcome of capitalism.

Why is it 'scrumping' to nick those apples? Property relations. Why are the roads and housing where we play in the pattern they are? Why are we playing soldiers not forest hunters? etc etc. By the time you've got out the house and are playing with your peers seems mad to think the larger socio-economic frameowrk isn;t affecting your play. Didn't old anarcho Colin Ward put a lot of this to bed in his Child in the City and Child in the Country books? (Ages since I read those)
 
Because capitalism is about 'the one'. It's human nature to be on top.
What are you going to do next, have races where all the runners have to go at the same speed?
One will always be faster than the rest.

Again (if your assertion is correct), why does this imply capitalism? Can you divorce what is meant by "on top" from social context?
 
Right, BA, let me try and clarify my position.

First up, I'm pretty sure the quote from the OP implies what I said I think it does. Never mind that for now. My answer to the question posed is yes, it is possible to imagine such a society. I'm also pretty well convinced that social relations are not primarily determined by economic ones in the present, weren't in the past and won't be in the future.

I then gave two examples of social relations - reproduction and group play. You claim they're not social relations. I challenge you to explain how they're not. You then shift the posts slightly, whilst claiming I said they weren't affected by capitalism at all, which is not at all the case, and which wasn't implied by my post. Remember, I was arguing against the (implied, YMMV) case that social relations = totally determined by accumulation of capital.

Anyway, you then seem to imply (correct me if I'm wrong) that there's somehow a massive causal difference between small-scale (small group) interactions and societal processes, as regards the question of the impact of acc. of capital on social relations.

"Your case only has a chance when you reduce it down to your own indivual desire and ignore the context in which those desires are played out."

To which I'll have to reply, your case only has a chance when you ignore the individual and reduce it down to reified societal entities such as class.
 
your case only has a chance when you ignore the individual and reduce it down to reified societal entities such as class.

Your case only has a chance when you accept Judeo-Christian reifications of some integral individual.
 
Right, BA, let me try and clarify my position.

First up, I'm pretty sure the quote from the OP implies what I said I think it does. Never mind that for now. My answer to the question posed is yes, it is possible to imagine such a society. I'm also pretty well convinced that social relations are not primarily determined by economic ones in the present, weren't in the past and won't be in the future.

I then gave two examples of social relations - reproduction and group play. You claim they're not social relations. I challenge you to explain how they're not. You then shift the posts slightly, whilst claiming I said they weren't affected by capitalism at all, which is not at all the case, and which wasn't implied by my post. Remember, I was arguing against the (implied, YMMV) case that social relations = totally determined by accumulation of capital.

Anyway, you then seem to imply (correct me if I'm wrong) that there's somehow a massive causal difference between small-scale (small group) interactions and societal processes, as regards the question of the impact of acc. of capital on social relations.

"Your case only has a chance when you reduce it down to your own indivual desire and ignore the context in which those desires are played out."

To which I'll have to reply, your case only has a chance when you ignore the individual and reduce it down to reified societal entities such as class.

The examples you give exist in a context - one of capitalism. You seem to be trying to look at them divorced of context.
 
the OP talks of the 'totality' of social relations. Totality is the aggregate of those relations, and, hence is absolutely about the overall situation, not whether you personally decided to go and play football or watch Hollyoaks.
 
Right, BA, let me try and clarify my position.

First up, I'm pretty sure the quote from the OP implies what I said I think it does. Never mind that for now. My answer to the question posed is yes, it is possible to imagine such a society. I'm also pretty well convinced that social relations are not primarily determined by economic ones in the present, weren't in the past and won't be in the future.

I then gave two examples of social relations - reproduction and group play. You claim they're not social relations. I challenge you to explain how they're not. You then shift the posts slightly, whilst claiming I said they weren't affected by capitalism at all, which is not at all the case, and which wasn't implied by my post. Remember, I was arguing against the (implied, YMMV) case that social relations = totally determined by accumulation of capital.

Anyway, you then seem to imply (correct me if I'm wrong) that there's somehow a massive causal difference between small-scale (small group) interactions and societal processes, as regards the question of the impact of acc. of capital on social relations.

"Your case only has a chance when you reduce it down to your own indivual desire and ignore the context in which those desires are played out."

To which I'll have to reply, your case only has a chance when you ignore the individual and reduce it down to reified societal entities such as class.

Well, as i said articl8 can clarify, i think you're wrong and i've never seen him argue the type of vular determinist model that you say he has. And yes, i noticed you slip in the word 'primarily' in your latest reply - a little step back maybe? :D

All i'm saying is that you gave two examples of individual behaviour and said they have nothing to do with capital accumulation. I said that they in themselves are not social relations (the word social implies more than individual) and then when they are looked at on the social level (as social relations) the fact that they've been shaped and influenced (not determined) by capital becomes self-evident - and so your first post rather than demonstrating the limits of capital on social relations serves only to highlight its pervasiveness.

I've not mentioned class btw - you're putting crude models in peoples mouths.
 
the OP talks of the 'totality' of social relations. Totality is the aggregate of those relations, and, hence is absolutely about the overall situation, not whether you personally decided to go and play football or watch Hollyoaks.

Yeah, there's the short answer :D
 
the OP talks of the 'totality' of social relations. Totality is the aggregate of those relations, and, hence is absolutely about the overall situation, not whether you personally decided to go and play football or watch Hollyoaks.

exactly - and "governed by" need not mean "sole and absolutely determining cause of".
 
Blagsta - talking about capitalism as the only economic, political, social, or cultural context that is worth considering strikes me as nonsensical and contrary to even a quick look out the window. Gift economies still exist in Western Europe. Honor is still a socially structuring cultural system of note in the US south. Neither stems from capitalism.

belboid - can you please point out for me "the totality of social relations"? Using "society", or "the totality of social relations" as if it actually has analytical meaning begs a whole lot of questions.

Before I take this any further, please let me clarify once and for all that I do believe economic processes have an impact on social relations. What I'm saying is that they're not always (or even often) the best, most important or most proximal determinant of behaviour, whether at the communal, group or individual level.
 
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