War.... what is it good for?

[Julie]

Absolutely nothing.

Yes, I've been singing several anti-war/protest tunes of late. I've even found some rather obscure free downloads that take the piss out of Dubya and Co. and the war in Iraq. I've even made some anti-war cds that friends are wanting me to burn for them.

But good lawd, when will they write some about Blair and Howard? Lyrics - I'm not too bad at, but music? Fuggedaboudit.

Anyways, this may be the shortest thread on war this forum's ever seen but I thought, stuff it.... I wanted to initiate it in the event that others feel the way I do and maybe voice their views. Also, to not feel obliged to use super-intellectual-mega-well-read-political-speak, but regular person speak. Like the majority of us speak.

In my view, war rates as *the* most insane action human beings have ever chosen to undertake. Yes, torture; not providing food, resources and medicines to developing nations; killings/beatings based on race, religion or sexual orientation; false imprisonment; capital punishment, etc, etc, are abhorrent.... but I'm focusing on war because I choose to.

Again, I'm *not* the most articulate, educated individual within these forums, political or otherwise.... not by a country mile. On the other hand, I want to say (and I know I'm stating the obvious):

That WAR SUCKS.

War causes:

* death to civilians and soldiers;
* destruction;
* widows and widowers;
* parentless children;
* childless parents;
* limbless bodies,
* people confined to wheelchairs,
* burnt/disfigured/barely recognisable men and women that will forever struggle looking at themselves in the mirror for the rest of their lives (I don't care how many arguments I hear to the contrary),
* post-traumatic stress disorder (i.e. nightmares, hypervigilance, anxiety, depression, flashbacks, replays, impaired concentration, undue fear, etc),
* flora and fauna blown up/burnt beyond recognition,

And on and on and on..... It's great, isn't it?

So what's it for? Freedom? BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! Could any lamer excuse be used

It's about parochialism and (pardon me) 'my dick is bigger than yours'.... with an unhealthy dose of fragile egos, imperialism/ownership, arrogance, prejudice, narcissism and sociopathy thrown in. Charles Manson (and the like) are no where near as dangerous as Bush, Blair and Howard.

Thus, it won't be until leaders of nations worldwide, as well as we the people, engage in *conversations* with each other and explore/mediate our differences..... it won't be until we let go of the constant suspicions we feel towards each other (even our next door neighbours for heaven's sake!).... it won't be until we recognise our very basic similarities re: the need for food, shelter, love, family, friendships, financial security, etc.... it won't be until we let go of our ego-driven desires for one-up-man-ship, whether that be in sport, business, the kind of home or car we own, how we look..... it won't be until we accept our differences re: religion, culture, sexual orientation...... it won't be until we live as one (however "flowery" that might sound) that war will stop (and stop being an option).

I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of it.

To be honest, even though extremely important, because of their educational value, I'm even sick of the debates about the reasons for and against war.... e.g. that Iran is possibly Bush's next target. I didn't say that right. What I mean is, I'm sick of the fact that these debates still need to be had.

WHEN WILL HUMAN BEINGS LEARN THAT WAR IS FUCKED!!!!!!!!!!! AND GOOD FOR NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I'm sick of the 'sanitised' conversations that go on in forums. What about some pictures for a change? Yes, they're upsetting.... but the fact that they are unpalatable ought to justify their inclusion even more:

It's not simply God Bless America. If there *is* a God, it should be God Bless Us All..... because we need all the help we can get to stop being such a universal bunch of fuckwits.

 

[Loki]

You obviously haven't read 1984. The whole point of war is to defeat those terrible people in Oceania. Plus generate lots of revenue for the military-industrial complex.

 

[fela fan]

I like the sentiments behind your post julie. Ie not only does war suck, but even debating it, as if it had some merits, sucks too.

My take on it at the moment is that we will never get rid of war until we, humans, get rid of politics as our default for organising our communities, societies, and nations. By and of itself, it is divisive and destructive.

We have gone a long way, us humans, but we continue to retain our achilles heel: war. We've managed just the odd outbreak of peace in amongst an almost constant state of war for our magical globe.

Revolutions have come and gone, but there can only be one more that can finally deliver what all ordinary folk yearn for, peace. And that is a revolution of thinking. We must ditch politics as our default and replace it with a 'spiritual' one. I recognise the connotations and, often in the west, the negative baggage that word carries hence the '....', but i can exemplify further if need be.

A deep awakening, a move towards awareness, is the first step.

This can only happen when people look within themselves and ask if they're satisfied with the life they're living (thank you b marley). Everybody, at all levels of society and life, is so fucking preoccupied with trying to change others, finding fault with others, judging others in a negative light. Looking within might seriously temper what they see outside of them.

I hope your thread takes off, coz in this day and age, with three monstrous killers bestriding our planet (bush blair howard) doing the deeds of those pulling their strings, we need a very urgent reevaluation of what it is humans need to do to move forward in a positive way, and to embrace the new century. We have only one thing left to achieve, and it's peace. Nothing else matters.

 

[dylanredefined]

War what is it good for ? well freeing western europe of nazi occupation
for one .Sprituality will save us bullshit superstious hippy crap.
Bush blair & Howard monstrous killers really ?compared to some other
leaders hardly earn the monstrous tag .
War is horrible and should always be the last resort but until the world is free of leaders who can convince people that using force they can get what they want .If your not prepared to fight learn to live as a slave .

 

[fela fan]

War is horrible and should always be the last resort but until the world is free of leaders who can convince people that using force they can get what they want .If your not prepared to fight learn to live as a slave .

Well that's not true mate. I refuse, always have done, to fight, and i'm the opposite of being a slave.

But to return to my theme, it's not down to the leaders stopping themselves from warring, it's down to their peoples deciding at some stage to stop giving them permission.

And they'll only do that when they've changed themselves. Hence the need to change our political default into another default, whatever you might want to call it.

 

[dylanredefined]

If people disagree you get poltics .A less aggresive version and more understading &comprimising on the world stage would be good .Your very fortunate never having had a reason to fight I assume .

 

[Rentonite]

What Nievete, and what is so sad is that so many "believe" as you do.

Organized war is the highest purpose humans have.
Every form of human endevor pails to insignificance compared to War.
The very Means we are communicating on was Developed specifically for Post Nuclear military communications.

We are ALL children of the post WWII world it surrounds us and penatrates us and is what binds the galaxie together,
ok ok mebbe it is not the "force"
but still it is impossible to look anywhere in modern society and NOT see evidence of War or wartime technolgy.
WAR is why we have societys and countrys and governments.

If you hate war so much you dont have to go, eventually it WILL come to you, or to your children.

To be passive, envites aggression,
to appease, guarentees it.
this has been proven over and over during All of recorded history
It is human nature to fight wars.
We have now gone 60 years since the end of the last big "real" War
when people start concidering WAR as an unacceptable option, it is an invitation for it.
WHY do you think we are in the troubles we are in today?
Because we where Too Harsh?
Hardly.
Its' because so many in western civilization have become accustomed to the wonderful conditions we live in and cannot begine to imagine the down side.

To put it simply We must fight wars or be slaves to those that will fight wars.

its' a pretty simple choice for me.
but you can make up your own mind
(since you have the freedom to be able to do that)

 

[likesfish]

too harsh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lets look at some of the scunmbags the west have backed shall we
south america guatemalia
central america chile argentena
Africa the congo
ASIA POL POT (even some members of the SAS thought that was going to far )
admitidly the Soviet union backed the other side plus countless terrorist organisations but even so there little excuse for the mayhem .
War its not going to go away anytime soon

 

[detective-boy]

War.... what is it good for?

Arms sales?
Securing supply chains (e.g. oil)?
Re-election? ......

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Arms sales?
Securing supply chains (e.g. oil)?
Re-election? ......

Let's face it, it's a hell of a lot of fun

*Flies round his room in his Apache firing randomly at the bad guys*

(For serious views see post no. 6 good guide there)

 

[nino_savatte]

War what is it good for ? well freeing western europe of nazi occupation
for one .Sprituality will save us bullshit superstious hippy crap.
Bush blair & Howard monstrous killers really ?compared to some other
leaders hardly earn the monstrous tag .
War is horrible and should always be the last resort but until the world is free of leaders who can convince people that using force they can get what they want .If your not prepared to fight learn to live as a slave .

Aye, war is horrible but certain leaders rush into it without thinking of the consequences. In Bush's case it was not used as a last resort but as a means of proving what a man he is. It's all about macho posturing as his comments on Iran have shown us.

So you like wars then, dylan? You like the destruction and devastation that goes with it? How about the disease, the hunger, the rape and plunder? All these things attend wars...or had you overlooked that?

 

[nino_savatte]

Originally Posted by Rentboy
Organized war is the highest purpose humans have.
Every form of human endevor pails to insignificance compared to War.
The very Means we are communicating on was Developed specifically for Post Nuclear military communications.

Are you for real? You're a troll and no mistake.

Do you worship the Bomb like the mutants in Beneath the Planet of the Apes?

 

[Andy the Don]

What Nievete, and what is so sad is that so many "believe" as you do.

Organized war is the highest purpose humans have.
Every form of human endevor pails to insignificance compared to War.
The very Means we are communicating on was Developed specifically for Post Nuclear military communications.

I would actually say that war is the highest purpose a state has. It is the most extreme act a state can perpetrate.

 

[Barking_Mad]

First up, ignore Rentonite. He's just a troll so stick him on ignore or pretend he isn't here. Back on subject....

For me war just shows the gaping problems with power, control and authority of any description. How many of the innocent many have died at the hands of just a violent few? Whenever someone mentions World Wars I'm always reminded of the example of the British and German soldiers laying down their weapons one Christmas in 1914 and having a game of football against each other before going back to their own trenches and re-starting the killing. I found this on the BBC website on the subject and in the process examples of of truces.

[The] truce did take place, and on some far greater scale than has been generally realised. Enemy really did meet enemy between the trenches. There was for a time, genuine peace in No Man's Land. Though Germans and British were the main participants, French and Belgians took part as well. Most of those involved agreed it was a remarkable way to spend Christmas. "Just you think," wrote one British soldier, "that while you were eating your turkey, etc, I was out talking and shaking hands with the very men I had been trying to kill a few hours before! It was astounding!"

"It was a day of peace in war," commented a German participant, "It is only a pity that it was not decisive peace."

So the Christmas Truce is no legend. It is not surprising, however, given the standard popular perception of World War I, that this supreme instance of "All Quiet on the Western Front" has come to have something of a legendary quality. People who would normally dismiss that far off conflict of their grandfathers in the century's teens as merely incomprehensible, find reassurance, even a kind of hope, in the Christmas truce. This was not, however, a unique occurrence in the history of war. Though it surprised people at the time - and continues to do so today - it was a resurgence of a long established tradition. Informal truces and small armistices have often taken place during prolonged periods of fighting and the military history of the last two centuries, in particular, abounds with incidents of friendship between enemies. In the Peninsula War British and French Troops at times visited each others lines, drew water at the same wells and even sat around the same campfire sharing their rations and playing cards.

To me this not only shows the stark absurdity of war and how the relatively slight differences between humans are used as propaganda by tyrants of all political stripes, but also how close 'the many' were to telling 'the few' where to stick their twisted fucked up ideologies before packing up their bags and going home to their families.

 

[nino_savatte]

Well said, Barking.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Absolutely nothing.

Yes, I've been singing several anti-war/protest tunes of late. I've even found some rather obscure free downloads that take the piss out of Dubya and Co. and the war in Iraq. I've even made some anti-war cds that friends are wanting me to burn for them.

Sorry for going slightly off topic - Have you heard Willy Mason's tune Oxygen? If you're into your protest songs you'll love that, it's a real beauty. There's a thread on it over in the music forum.

 

[R.I.C.O.]

War is the greatest tragedy of human civilisation.

 

[energy]

War has inspired some of the greatest stories/adventures, song, poems, movies, heroes, etc. in human history. Life would be much less interesting without something to fight for. It has also created opportunities for immense humanity (as Barking points out). Without these, we would be culturally poorer.

 

[Pickman's model]

wars are often quite handy at getting rid of people who truly believe in queen/king & country.

 

[Barking_Mad]

War has inspired some of the greatest stories/adventures, song, poems, movies, heroes, etc. in human history. Life would be much less interesting without something to fight for. It has also created opportunities for immense humanity (as Barking points out). Without these, we would be culturally poorer.

You might argue that without war we'd have simply found something else to stimulate the human mind to write about. Then again you might argue that war is just a part of humanities evolution and its something we have to go through whether we like it or not.

 

[R.I.C.O.]

I think we de-evolve (sp?) through war - it is a regression of the human spirit...

 

[Barking_Mad]

I think we de-evolve (sp?) through war - it is a regression of the human spirit...

I agree, was just playing devils advocate

 

[ska invita]

Absolutely nothing.

...say it again

 

[energy]

You might argue that without war we'd have simply found something else to stimulate the human mind to write about.

I don't think so. War as a subject doesn't have a cultural monopoly. People write about other things all the time. What could take the place of war as a subject? More romantic movies? More crime novels? These are being done in parallel to war stories, etc.

Then again you might argue that war is just a part of humanities evolution and its something we have to go through whether we like it or not.

Even chimp tribes wage war on each other and against other primates.

 

[energy]

Without war and conflict, debate would cease and human intellect might not be so advanced.

(Don't get me wrong. I am not a "fan" or advocate of war. But war has a place in human society, and it is not absolutely negative as suggested.)

 

[Barking_Mad]

Without war and conflict, debate would cease and human intellect might not be so advanced.

Sorry, can't agree. War stops many people from expanding their horizons and dreaming of other things. How far did WWII setback mankind in terms of economic and social development throughout the world? You can have healthy and intelligent debate without killing millions of people. Who knows how many great ideas were killed off due to those deaths?

 

[nino_savatte]

Without wars the current form of capitalism (and indeed previous forms) wouldn't survive. The arms industry is nothing without conflict: it needs it to reproduce and because of this it requires the co-operation of the ideological arms* of the state, that is to say individual politicians, their parties and so forth, to carry out its wishes. And so the cycle is perpetuated.


*no pun intended there!

 

[energy]

Who knows how many great ideas were killed off due to those deaths?

I would say that very few great ideas were killed off by war. Ideas exist within a broader context -- it is exceptionally rare for someone to have an idea by themselves with absolutely no contact with others.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I would say that very few great ideas were killed off by war. Ideas exist within a broader context -- it is exceptionally rare for someone to have an idea by themselves with absolutely no contact with others.

Well in my opinion even if it was just one great idea, it was one great idea too many.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Without wars the current form of capitalism (and indeed previous forms) wouldn't survive. The arms industry is nothing without conflict: it needs it to reproduce and because of this it requires the co-operation of the ideological arms* of the state, that is to say individual politicians, their parties and so forth, to carry out its wishes. And so the cycle is perpetuated.


*no pun intended there!

Agreed entirely.