Wales ranked at 10th best team in the world!

Discussion in 'football' started by editor, Jul 5, 2015.

  1. tommers

    tommers Your disco needs you

    Well done Wales. Even if only for the Ginger Pele. He's finally got a chance to strut his stuff on a fitting stage for his talents.
     
  2. editor

    editor Taffus Maximus

    BAM! And that will do nicely :D

     
  3. deadringer

    deadringer meat pie sausage roll

    Exactly. Where all these cocky, arrogant, sneery puffed up England fans all are I have no idea. They are certainly not on these boards, and the general consensus in 'the real world' seems to be that we are a bit shit. Even the media long ago gave up on banging the England drum. I have no idea who in their right mind would pay to see England at Wembley, but amazingly it always seems full. Plenty of families in the stands I notice these days.

    But obviously all that doesn't fit the narrative of In-ger-land hating the Welsh & Scots with a frothing rage :facepalm:
     
    Ted Striker likes this.
  4. deadringer

    deadringer meat pie sausage roll

    But back to the football!

    Neville Southall was on TalkSport yesterday, saying that when Wales are at the Euros they shouldn't just be pleased to be there and just taking part, but to give it a proper go and try to win the thing. Was a good confident attitude to have, especially with the team the have now.
     
  5. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    Of course, the chances of Cyprus beating Belgium are close to zero, German draws are possible home to Poland, away to Scotland. Still, fourth would still be pretty fucking remarkable
     
  6. ddraig

    ddraig dros ben llestri

    could be up to 2nd soon according to Wales Online! :D :hmm:

    How Wales could become the second best team in the world if they beat Israel
    tenuous as fuck!
     
  7. miktheword

    miktheword Well-Known Member


    Well done Wales, hope they get there, fans deserve a party, and with someone like Bale, as a spurs fan I know how he can win a game at the end out of nothing..what make's him worth that money over and above ur average £30 million player these days.
    anyway, as title had rankings in it..and has been talked about this week..

    .. I left alone an argument about rankings, games v two sides as an accurate assessment of two teams a year back when I debated, with you I think, that England were over ranked by the system, historically getting easy groups which helped their subsequent ranking.
    I don't think there are arrogant England fans on these boards.

    I did read last year on here a lot, that England, by qualifying, and going out at quarters continually, but getting re-seeded top again, justified their ranking.

    I said that since England benefited from a historical grading system, that despite other countries catching up with them and probably their equals now, or much of a muchness, as England's tournament bad results overwhelmingly showed when they came up against any quality, they would continue to benefit from that historical part of the ranking system.

    Wales have had to fight their way up from 117th. difficult, .hence partly why Coleman could have lost his job,,whereas a crap Hodgson, Capello, Eriksson would cruise through easy groups (hence justifying their seeding I was told) before stinking out the place every time at a tournament.

    I hear some arrogance tonight on guardian forum from ignorant English fans saying how Robbie keane , as he plays for Ireland, must have scored his goals against crap teams..totally oblivious to the fact that Ireland, seeded third or fourth often, will be up against harder opposition than England's strikers, Rooney at this moment in comparison.

    To use your two teams comparison and the result as you re quoted earlier, I'm sure you wouldn't say that as England haven't beaten ireland since 1985, that they're equal?
    Ranking systems AND THE HISTORICAL PART especially, do matter..as Arsenal have found out. UEFA changed their's this year, Arsenal, always seeded top, are no longer. Nothing has changed about their ability, just the way the rankings happened. Previously, 4th in Premier league for quite a while, got top seed..changed now.

    Even Romania manager said his team's 7th in the world ranking was shit, today.

    England fans on here during that discussion last year weren't arrogant, just a little blind.
    If Wales were to take the place of Georgia in Ireland's group and England were also included atm, I'd guess, Germany top, Bales second, and a toss up between the rest..which would of course affect the fourth placed team's ranking the next time..but England don't get those groups..because of historical reasons..(the sort that Arsenal benefited from, but do no longer) Where England do benefit, is from having a far bigger bank of players to call from, especially if there are injuries..the celtic nations suffer from this (Wales would especially if Bale, Ramsey were out)

    I reckon Scotland, despite today, have been far better than ireland in this group, who've got some lucky last minute goals (germany, Georgia, Poland) whereas scotland have played better football, running Germany very close earlier..but it's a toss up now as to who will get the higher ranking after the next three games..it will subsequently be a lot harder for an improving scotland team if they finish fourth to qualify next time.

    In such groups as these, which the celtic nations get, seeded 2nd, 3rd or 4th, a single last minute slip up makes all the difference for the present qualification but also the next few years...whereas England can draw with shite, lose to Northern ireland and still easily top their pathetic groups. Actually getting 100% win rate sometimes and then wondering how they lose immediately to anything resembling quality in every tournament

    'Costa Rica nil nil gave the fans something to smile about'..Hodgson...justifying their seeding and ranking.


    Anyway, well done Wales
     
    Belushi likes this.
  8. toblerone3

    toblerone3 Grrrrr

    Big up Wales! Enjoy the ride as Europe's top team. :hmm:
     
  9. Lo Siento.

    Lo Siento. Second As Farce

    Christ, you're back, didn't your absurd opinion on this take enough of a battering last time?
     
  10. miktheword

    miktheword Well-Known Member



    Oh I haven't been away..don't live on here, you can tell your Christ. I took no battering, got bored with getting no worthwile reply from you and your little englanders...and I reckon the only 'battering' you know of is metaphorical,

    If I do post, its usually on politics, England's group degree of 'difficulty' and explanation maybe I remark on once a year..and leave it to the radio talk shows to whisper that they got lucky again.
    As said, the arrogance of England fans is mostly absent on these forums, but not totally. As you remind me. Not even arguments now from you, just , 'oh, your back'.. wanker.

    No answer to how UEFA changing rankings affects Arsenal, with no change in how Arsenal are as a team? who were benefited previously by qualification and so historically (as are England) by the ranking system?..no, nothing from you..

    That was my point, unbattered.

    Yet you'll continue to be astonished as to how you win every group game but fuck up as soon as you're not afforded the same advantage EVERY TIME at tournaments proper..every time..not a one off...what else can explain it? too hot?..foreign managers?..too strict a regime?..the Gerard Lampard thing? shit at penalties? couldn't be that they're over ranked a bit, like I argued, thus easy groups led to false hopes pre EVERY tournament, before fuck up EVERY time?

    I chuckled to myself once when watching Ireland beat England in Stuttgart '88, as he said, 'look at our players, they're all knackered!'...didn't have the heart to inform him where Ireland's players had been playing all year. And no answer to how two teams playing each other is a fair assessment of their current abilities..as you previously argued above with England Wales? England are better than Ireland, but haven't beaten them for 30 years..your argument then is shit.

    still, the Costa Rica game must've put a smile back on your face. Roy was glad for the fans. And as you'd say, 'justified their ranking'. Comedy.

    prick
     
  11. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    even the tournaments England didn't qualify for? Or the ones where they reached the quarter-finals?
     
  12. Supine

    Supine Rough Like Badger

    If they can get to second I. The world it shows there is something wrong with the scoring system I reckon.

    FFS at least England won the World Cup in 66!!!
     
  13. ddraig

    ddraig dros ben llestri

    really? really? :D :facepalm:
     
  14. Belushi

    Belushi 01 811 8055 R.I.P.

    49 years, long time ago now
     
    ddraig likes this.
  15. ddraig

    ddraig dros ben llestri

    "50 years of hurt" next year! maybe they can bring out a new song about it
     
  16. Belushi

    Belushi 01 811 8055 R.I.P.

    God that's fucking depressing, twenty years since that three lions song
     
    Maltin and ddraig like this.
  17. Supine

    Supine Rough Like Badger

    Surely nobody thinks you can be that good without actually ever winning competitions (

    If they can get to second in the world it shows there is something wrong with the scoring system I reckon.

    Sorry, just had to correct the bollox apple predictive text thing above.
     
  18. ddraig

    ddraig dros ben llestri

    you are holding up a win in a comp nearly 50 years ago? a team that are sposed to be one of the best in the world? :hmm:
     
  19. The Octagon

    The Octagon Stop...Hammertime

    You really have no sense of humour whatsoever do you?

    It's called self deprecation, look it up :D
     
  20. Supine

    Supine Rough Like Badger

    Not heard anyone say England are one of the best in world in my life time. Just never heard anyone say wales do better!

    (To qualify this I support wales in the rugby. You can take the boy out of wales, but you can't take wales out of the boy)
     
  21. ddraig

    ddraig dros ben llestri

    e2a to Dr O
    really? you sure?
    it is really hard to tell with a lot of englun fans
     
  22. Supine

    Supine Rough Like Badger

    Not heard anyone say England are one of the best in world in my life time. Just never heard anyone say wales do better!

    (To qualify this I support wales in the rugby. You can take the boy out of wales, but you can't take wales out of the boy)
     
  23. miktheword

    miktheword Well-Known Member



    Hard to fuck up when they weren't there....but recent history, 20 years,has massively benifited them..it was unbelievably hard once there,not to progress, but they almost managed it a couple of times..and then, the inevitable...to some, a shock
    they got an easy group even when they got a slightly lower ranking..Turkey (who were shit at the time) and Italy if I remember, under Hoddle, were second.
    My point isn't that England are shit..but that are on a par with many European teams who are ranked third and fourth seeds, thus making it hard to get higher ranking through qualifying. Not blaming them, but had been trying to find that Observer article from many years ago which said FIFA may as well just invite Beckham, England to their tv tournament, after analysing who they kept getting, with rankings.

    i think its clearer now than a year ago, that both UEFA and FIFA benefit from tv audiences..I posted in my so called 'battering' from Lo Siento, that twice UEFA introduced seedings at th eplay off stage, without prior notice..successful historically teams like England, were to be kept apart from other such teams and to play the second leg at home..Ireland twice threatened legal action, authorities backed down, only for the same draw to happen..big tv nations kept apart and at home second leg..England got Scotland that time. Money and tv audiences mattered to UEFA, perhaps more believed now than a year ago.

    irrespective of the money, they 'reached the quarter finals' also on account of seeding...firstly getting easy groups when there..despite stinking the place out..a crouch lean on a trinidad player for a header ten minutes from the end..a call to arms to defoe against god knows who..they get through..'thus justifying their ranking/seeding' I'm told..my point is that without that historical bias in seedings (which UEFA have now removed from champs league) England would do much as the same as the mid ranking european teams that I think they are on a par with.

    I asked for example, how would they do in scotland / ireland/ poland / germany group? 50-50 I reckon in top two..'justifying their seeding?' whoever of those four who don't get there, get a lower ranking...I remember when Ireland were much better than England..had to qualify from a group with portugal and Holland in it..no way would England have qualified, 'justified their seeding' from that group.

    But the cyclical process advantaged them every time..until they got there..and seeding made easy group stage..until quality came up..EVERY TIME..

    now that's my argument, maybe wrong..but I'll ask again, to you and mainly Lo Siento, what's your explanation for steamrolling through every qualifying group and then stinking the place out when ANY quality arrives?..(even perenial underachievers like Portugal ffs)

    (eta any quality they faced, they got a shit Germany once in a group with two going through,needed a last minute equaliser at home to greece..Greece!..and a draw away to Italy heralded as Waterloo to qualify)

    They are a quarter final team..as are a lot of teams in Europe..but who get seeding a lot lower than England. Explain to me then, how they haven't progressed more than say Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, not much more than Ireland actually last 30 years, despite such a ranked advantage..?

    what's the reason?..I'd love to hear..,Lo Siento must know, the batterer,

    not getting beyond quarters in so many tournaments where its virtually guaranteed you'll get to that stage?

    It couldn't be, could it, that if such a historical seeding advantage was removed, as happened to Arsenal this year, that England would find their level and have to fight with those european teams i mentioned, getting through sometimes, coming third sometimes..their level.
     
  24. The Octagon

    The Octagon Stop...Hammertime

    It isn't actually, you and a few others just pretend it is.
     
  25. twistedAM

    twistedAM Left Of The Dial

    It could all fizz out in France e.g. Bale gets injured and the ball comes off Lafferty's arse to secure a 1-0 win for the Irish 1st XI ;)
     
  26. miktheword

    miktheword Well-Known Member

    Firstly, Lo Siento and belboid, apologies perhaps for my tone earlier..thought I was being condescended to from one anyway...
    some stuff I found, (and I'm not being ABE..just trying to give some account of why the same exceptional group phase happens with different players and managers over decades, with the same tournament result)

    Based on the results of our analysis, we show that seeding increases the probability that the best teams qualify beyond early rounds, but that seeding policy on the whole reduces tournament outcome uncertainty. Based on the six types of seeding method we study, we find that reseeding at each round favours the top teams to the greatest extent, followed by standard seeding. These effects persist over a range of tournament structures. Within specific tournament structures, there is little to choose between m-pot seeding and cohort seeding. Whether seeding is fair is another matter. Seeding is designed to increase competitive balance in the later stages of a tournament. Therefore, by design it favours the top teams over the weaker teams. To us, giving one team an advantage over another seems to contradict normal notions of fairness. Furthermore, seeding and the implicit pre-tournament ranking of competitors often involves a subjective element. We therefore conclude that seeding is not ‘fair’; seeding is designed to increase the discriminatory power of a tournament.conclusion from scarf..A numerical study of tournament structure and seeding policy for the soccer World Cup Finals P. A. Scarf* and M. M. Yusof Centre for Operations Management, Management Science and Statistics, Salford Business School, University of Salford, M5 4WT, United Kingdom


    haven’t had time to go through it in detail, (and in fairness saw an article that stated due to FIFA’s crap ranking,England for once got a hard initial group in 2002...given that Sweden, Argentina and Nigeria were ranked appropriately..dubious, and all were crap in that tournament too)


    Will analyse this more later, but for now..

    the old ‘When saturday Comes’...(and just one of the times they did it..affected Ireland especially, as they’re a team who can usually hope for the play offs..subsequent seeding matters




    WSC...

    The recent declaration that the European play-off draw for 2010 would be seeded – meaning theoretically easier passages for France, Russia, Portugal and Greece – caught most observers off guard, and stirred up a far more vociferous reaction than probably had been anticipated.
    In purely technical terms, FIFA did nothing underhand: at no stage of the qualification tournament had they announced that the play-offs would definitely be unseeded. Yet the suddenness and deeply odd timing of the announcement, at the end of September – right at the precise moment that the European groups were coming to the boil, with several of the continent’s heavy hitters in serious trouble – were always bound to raise questions. It’s hard to understand why the position couldn’t have been clarified a year ago when everything was starting off.

    The most heated words came from the Ireland camp. Shay Given described FIFA’s actions as “disgusting” and “beyond belief”, going on to suggest that “people high up in [FIFA] delegations” came from countries who needed a “helping hand”. Giovanni Trapattoni warned that FIFA risked “the death of football” if they kept meddling with competition formats. FAI boss John Delaney, possibly unsurprisingly for a man who spends so much of his time in the company of other blazers, was more conciliatory: “We’d have been delighted to have got to the play-offs at the start of the group and we’ll take what we get.” (we know now he got £5m from henry's handball, years later)

    The official explanation was that the seedings were compiled in accordance with FIFA’s rankings – the same rankings that, year after year in the 1990s, placed Mexico and the Czech Republic in the top five (despite the latter’s failure to make either the 1998 or 2002 World Cups). The latest ones showed Croatia bizarrely rising by one place in the wake of their drubbing by England at Wembley.

    The four seeds negotiated their qualifiers with varying degrees of clumsiness. Greece, still dining out on the ranking points from Euro 2004, lost home and away to an unexceptional Swiss side in probably the worst group of all. Russia couldn’t take any points off Germany, the only difficult opponent in their section. France, unbelievably still led by the increasingly wayward Raymond Domenech, stumbled embarrassingly in Vienna and twice couldn’t beat a rotten Romanian outfit. Portugal’s Carlos Queiroz almost outdid Domenech for ineptitude: a campaign speckled with 0-0 draws reached its grim nadir at home to ten-man Albania.

    Three of the quartet (Russia being the exception) were top seeds in their groups anyway. Having failed to capitalise on that advantage, they’ve now been handed another one. Contrariwise, after facing the 2006 winners twice in their group, Ireland must now beat the 2006 runners-up merely to qualify. Slovenia, once again overachieving massively, will have to deal with Guus Hiddink. And Bosnia, originally fourth seeds in Group Five and possibly the world’s most improved team, face a Portugal side bristling with big reputations. (Exactly how justified those reputations are remains to be seen; Ronaldo was so dreadful in the group stage that he failed to score a single goal.)

    FIFA have kept their hands clean in masterly style. Having earlier stayed silent and not offered any hostages to fortune, they can now claim with a straight face that this was how it was going to happen all along. But it’s naive to think that commercial considerations didn’t enter into their thoughts, or that their ultimate decision to spread their seed (as it were) wasn’t delayed as a result of those considerations. It’s also worth noting that USA 94, to take one example among many, didn’t seem to suffer too badly from the absence of Jean-Pierre Papin, Ryan Giggs, Jari Litmanen, George Weah, the Laudrup brothers and others.

    Anybody with even a thumbnail knowledge of FIFA’s history won’t have been too astonished. This, after all, is the organisation which, at the draw for Spain 82, made England (absentees at the previous two World Cups) top seeds on the basis of them having won the trophy in 1966. Just as well Uruguay didn’t qualify that year.From WSC 274 December 2009
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    that’ll be something to do with that historical element I mentioned. (to use again a domestic example, City have been better than Arsenal for a few years since Dubai..but had a harder seeding in Champs league..now removed)
    European sides of the equivalence of England, more or less, have a similar disadvantage.

    Follow the money, the tv deals from large populations (Even the Champs league, formed to stop a breakaway by the G14, had Milan when they didn’t qualify one year, arguing for a gold card entry for previous winners!)


    When a similar unannounced seeding for play offs happened in 2000, Ireland sought litigation, UEFA backed down, result of exactly the same draw which Ireland objected to, big teams apart, at home second leg, had odds of 1000s to one..Which duly happened.
     
  27. editor

    editor Taffus Maximus

    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
  28. passenger

    passenger up and down...

    still going to France, just one of those games , Israel are no mugs
     
  29. bendeus

    bendeus Bellend Tagline Generator

  30. JimW

    JimW 支那暗杀团

    An unbeaten 0-1 at that. Impressive!
     

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