Voting in the euro elections?

[Zachor]

I agree. But it is undesirable, in the sense that I wish the lefts/greens, or even proper social democrats could get their act together to cut across the space that allows the BNP to pick up protest votes.

But that would mean having to take note of peoples views on such issues as immigration, resource provision and allocation, local democracy, community safety etc etc etc

Many peoples views on such matters are streets away from those of the established Left and Left parties may be uncomfortable with acknowleding those. Sadly the BNP is a party that is listening to peoples fears on such issues as well as creating some fears of its own.

The boil of the bnp can be lanced the question is have any mainstream politicians got the balls to do so?

I want to see a happy prosperous multi racial society in the UK and neither the fash (white or green) nor the major parties seem to be the answer (I discount the far left as they are in many cases part of the problem).

 

[Fisher_Gate]

not much pointing voting to stop the BNP in Scotland tho is there?

In Y&H last tiome, the greens got 6% and the fash 8%. This time tho I doubt UKIP will manage their 14%, so the fash could just get enough to win a seat. There'll be no Respect or Alliance for Green Socialism this time tho (I think) so thats an extra 3% available to the Greens. Could be worth a vote

Alliance for Green Socialism are on the No2EU slate and will have a candidate in Y&H.

 

[pingupete]

Green case for a tactical vote in the NW to stop the BNP http://www.stopnickgriffin.org.uk/sites/stopnickgriffin

 

[JimPage]

Green case for a tactical vote in the NW to stop the BNP http://www.stopnickgriffin.org.uk/sites/stopnickgriffin

Its a case to be made, and think a Green vote would be best, but a Labour vote would be a good second option to help labour get a third MEP in the NW

 

[pingupete]

Its a case to be made, and think a Green vote would be best, but a Labour vote would be a good second option to help labour get a third MEP in the NW

I think as things currently stand Jim, I agree with you about Labour being the second most effective tactical vote. If the Lib Dems still had Saj Karim as their number 2, the dynamic might be different.

It doesn't excuse Labour putting out leaflets saying that, "...only Labour can beat the BNP here. A vote for another party is wasted vote and could let the BNP in."

It's effectively blackmail, not factually accurate in any way, and really quite morally low. I think they could have put their message in a more constructive way.

 

[josef1878]

I live in the NW and I will be voting NO2EU.

I won't be surprised if Griffin gets a seat, the opposition are pathetic.

A mate of mine was at a Hope Not Hate meeting where they discussed the forthcoming election. The general consensus was that the BNP wont be out campaigning and dishing out leaflets locally! There was no answer when somebody asked "What will we do if they they do?"

Fuckin pathetic, if thats the 'organised' left then we are fucked well and truly.

 

[DotCommunist]

I live in the NW and I will be voting NO2EU.

I spoke to an SP bloke about No2EU, and I'm still not entirely sure why No2EU won't be engaging in the actual parliament if they win seats.

 

[stavros]

Don't know who's running round here. I'll go for the Greens, and if they're not running it'll be the LibDems.

 

[joevsimp]

Don't know who's running round here. I'll go for the Greens, and if they're not running it'll be the LibDems.

greens are running a slate in all regions

http://www.greenparty.org.uk/elections/euro-elections2009.html

 

[josef1878]

I spoke to an SP bloke about No2EU, and I'm still not entirely sure why No2EU won't be engaging in the actual parliament if they win seats.

Their election bumpf mentions not taking part in the EU gravy train, they could take any seats won and distribute any cash wisely i reckon

 

[Stoat Boy]

I struggle to understand some of you Urban Lefties. On the one hand you all make the right noises about the BNP and how much you detest them yet if push come to shove and your vote mattered and would keep them out by voting Tory you would not do it. Why ?

The ONLY time I would ever vote Labour(spit) would be if it meant stopping the BNP winning. Labour are wankers but they are not grade A pricks like the BNP.

Sometimes I wonder if you really do want to defeat the BNP or whether the existance of a growing right wing party just gives you a scratching post to enjoy hacking away at whilst preening yourself how anti 'fash' you are.

 

[DotCommunist]

I struggle to understand some of you Urban Lefties. On the one hand you all make the right noises about the BNP and how much you detest them yet if push come to shove and your vote mattered and would keep them out by voting Tory you would not do it. Why ?

The ONLY time I would ever vote Labour(spit) would be if it meant stopping the BNP winning. Labour are wankers but they are not grade A pricks like the BNP.

Sometimes I wonder if you really do want to defeat the BNP or whether the existance of a growing right wing party just gives you a scratching post to enjoy hacking away at whilst preening yourself how anti 'fash' you are.

As a rival to the big three the BNP haven't a chance in Generals, this is european and the idea behind no2eu is to gather together a broad spectrum of leftist voters who wish to deny the BNP seats in european parliament but cannot in good conscience vote for any of the other parties.

 

[marty21]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5776247.ece

quite surprised to read today (and it happened a few months ago) that the BNP won a seat on Sevenoaks council

 

[danny la rouge]

I struggle to understand some of you Urban Lefties. On the one hand you all make the right noises about the BNP and how much you detest them yet if push come to shove and your vote mattered and would keep them out by voting Tory you would not do it. Why ?

Because Tories are scum.

 

[Stoat Boy]

Because Tories are scum.

So you would rather see the BNP win than vote Tory ?

 

[Zapata]

I'm not voting it isn't worth the walk.

If people don't bother voting how can they then whine when a party they don't like gets in ?

 

[Rod Sleeves]

Voting for one of the big three parties to keep the BNP out is a waste of time, and in fact directly counter productive given that it is their policies that have directly created the space in which the BNP can work.

 

[DotCommunist]

So you would rather see the BNP win than vote Tory ?

As a rival to the big three the BNP haven't a chance in Generals, this is european and the idea behind no2eu is to gather together a broad spectrum of leftist voters who wish to deny the BNP seats in european parliament but cannot in good conscience vote for any of the other parties.

to repeat. It isn't a choice between the big three, there are other options and some spurious appeal to vote tory to keep out the fash is not credible

 

[Stoat Boy]

to repeat. It isn't a choice between the big three, there are other options and some spurious appeal to vote tory to keep out the fash is not credible

Apologies for maybe coming accross as a bit of div when it comes to maths but in a PR system surely voting for one the smaller parties helps somebody like the BNP because it makes it easier for them to get a higher percentage of the vote ?

Or have I got that all wrong ? Its early and this sort of maths was never my strong point.

 

[Jean-Luc]

the idea behind no2eu is to gather together a broad spectrum of leftist voters who wish to deny the BNP seats in european parliament but cannot in good conscience vote for any of the other parties.

That's what they say. But are you sure that the real aim is not to create a mass New Workers Party, ie to recreate a trade-union based "Labour" party (which would inevitably go the way of the old Labour Party, with Militant infiltration and all)?

In any event, voting for a list (such as No2EU) that has no chance of getting anybody elected won't harm the BNP's chances. As far as I can understand the proportional representation system in place, seats are allocated on the basis of the number of votes cast for each list. Under this system the only way to reduce the BNP's chances is vote for a list that does have a chance of winning a seat, ie (like it or not) Labour, Liberal, Tory, maybe Green or even UKIP. In fact, putting up a list that will take votes away from any of these other parties (and the No2EU list seems aimed at taking votes from Labour) will actually increase the BNP's chance.

True, there is another way to decrease their chances. And that it is try to gather votes that would otherwise go to the BNP. Which might explain the narrow nationalist, anti-EU stance (with no mention of socialism or even anti-capitalism) taken up in the No2EU's manifesto. Or, more likely to succeed, you could encourage the National Front, the English Democrats and anti-immgrant parties to stand.

Anyway, personally I'm not in favour of all this tactical voting. If the BNP get elected, they get elected. But waving the BNP bogey is not going to get me to vote for Labour, Liberal, Tory or something I don't want. As someone once said, it's better to vote for something you want and not get it than to vote for something you don't want and get it.

 

[danny la rouge]

So you would rather see the BNP win than vote Tory ?

And where is that going to be my choice? My Westminster constituency is a Labour/SNP marginal (FPTP); my Holyrood constituency is an SNP seat, with Labour in second place (FPTP); my Holyrood AV region has 6 Scottish National Party MSPs (five constituency members and one additional members), 5 Labour MSPs (two constituency members and three additional members), 3 Conservative MSP (all additional members), and 2 Liberal Democrat MSPs (both constituency members). In the previous parliament it had 1 Green MSP (additional member); in Europe, my STV region has seven MEPs - two Scottish National Party (SNP), two Labour, two Conservative, and one Liberal Democrat MEPs for Scotland. There are no BNP councilllors in Scotland, and no wards in which they came close to winning.

Now, can you explain to me the statistics that require me to vote Tory lest an BNP candidate win?

Oh, and an additional piece of information for your statistical analysis: I didn't vote in any of those elections last time, and nor will I next time. That's just in case there's a one vote difference somewhere in your calculations.

 

[Stoat Boy]

I have never said that there would be a senario in which you have a single vote to cast that could prevent a BNP victory but its all about the mindset of some of you lefties that I am trying to understand.

Would you, in principle, rather see a BNP win rather than vote for a Tory ? It really is a simple question.

 

[danny la rouge]

Would you, in principle, rather see a BNP win rather than vote for a Tory ? It really is a simple question.

And it betrays your mindset. Let me tell you a bit about mine: I don't accept that power comes from the ballot box, quite the reverse. For me, power comes from working class solidarity. If we work together as communities, empowering ourselves, taking control of our own destiny, then we will not turn to either fascism or Conservatism to run the state.

So, for me, the struggle is in communities, working against fascism and racism in our midst, not at the ballot box.

Your question is just a variant of 'would you rather vote for neoliberal A (New Labour) or neoliberal B (Conservative)?'. My answer to that, too, is 'neither', because for me democracy is not putting a bit of paper in a box once every four years, it is about communities taking control of their own lives.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's what they say. But are you sure that the real aim is not to create a mass New Workers Party, ie to recreate a trade-union based "Labour" party (which would inevitably go the way of the old Labour Party, with Militant infiltration and all)?

A bit paranoid, don't you think?

 

[dennisr]

A bit paranoid, don't you think?

the SP members are actually alien lizards in disguise

 

[Stoat Boy]

And it betrays your mindset. Let me tell you a bit about mine: I don't accept that power comes from the ballot box, quite the reverse. For me, power comes from working class solidarity. If we work together as communities, empowering ourselves, taking control of our own destiny, then we will not turn to either fascism or Conservatism to run the state.

So, for me, the struggle is in communities, working against fascism and racism in our midst, not at the ballot box.

Your question is just a variant of 'would you rather vote for neoliberal A (New Labour) or neoliberal B (Conservative)?'. My answer to that, too, is 'neither', because for me democracy is not putting a bit of paper in a box once every four years, it is about communities taking control of their own lives..

What a load of mealy mouthed bollocks.

And the ironic thing that the nearest we are seeing to ' communities taking control of their own lives ' are those communities that are percieving themselves to be ignored by the mainstream parties and voting for the BNP.

The BNP is community based activism that is seeking to achieve influence via the ballot box. Thats how the system works and how it will be working for the forseeable future.

And thats my mindset. Which makes a lot more sense than yours which seems to be firmly of the having your head stuck up your arse and thinking that if you and your chums can all sound clever enough to each other then nasty people like the BNP will just fade away in dazzlement at just how bright you all are.

People keep on saying that the BNP are not a threat but its very possible that come these Euro elections they could have official representation, and public funding, in Brussels. Thats real. Who would have thought this possible 10 years ago ? But its going to happen.

So who is to say that they wont have MP's in Westminister in the next 10 ? The BNP will ultimately only be defeated at the ballot box. You can put on every sort of pop concert and demo you want. You can sign every petition and make all sorts of worthy statement but unless you can stop them getting more votes than the other people standing up against them its a FAIL.

 

[danny la rouge]

What a load of mealy mouthed bollocks.

Is that right.

And the ironic thing that the nearest we are seeing to ' communities taking control of their own lives ' are those communities that are percieving themselves to be ignored by the mainstream parties and voting for the BNP.

Communities are being ignored by the mainstream.

Which makes a lot more sense than yours which seems to be firmly of the having your head stuck up your arse and thinking that if you and your chums can all sound clever enough to each other then nasty people like the BNP will just fade away in dazzlement at just how bright you all are.

Well, first of all fighting racism and fascism in real communities isn't about "sounding clever to each other", and secondly you're proposing that voting Tory will cause the BNP to just fade away. It won't. Not least, because you don't propose doing anything expect maybe a few leaflets in the three weeks before polling day, then nothing at all for another four years.

People keep on saying that the BNP are not a threat

Who says that?

You and the BNP are both the enemy.

 

[belboid]

blah blah deliberate misunderstanding of point blah blah

So who is to say that they wont have MP's in Westminister in the next 10 ? The BNP will ultimately only be defeated at the ballot box. You can put on every sort of pop concert and demo you want. You can sign every petition and make all sorts of worthy statement but unless you can stop them getting more votes than the other people standing up against them its a FAIL.

you seem a tad confused, poor thing. For one you seem misguided enough to believe the BNP are solely interested in the ballot box, whereas anyone who pays them any serious atention knows that that is merely a short/mid-term strategy of theirs. But even if it was true, it wouldn't make your spat out spleen any more accurate.

just how does one stop them getting more votes? You're slagging danny of for not voting against them, but votng for someone else doesn't stop the BNP from getting more votes. Far from it. Indeed the only people who argue for such a strategy (if you can even call it that) are those who are using the BNP threat for their own opportunistic reasons - 'vote for me or they'll get in'.

The only way to stop the BNP getting more votes (and stopping them doing that is the only mid-long term way of beating them, seeing them narrowly lose an election wont halt them in their stride) is to expose them for what they are, to oppose them at every turn and in everything they do, and providing a real alternative that actually takes up community issues. Voting has fuck all to do with it. (tho voting tory wouldn't help in any way shape or form, even if it did stop one fascist from being elected. they'd jsut create an even bigger pile of shite, and continue to ignore working-class communities, so the BNP would thrive even more and make them yet stronger)

 

[Jean-Luc]

the SP members are actually alien lizards in disguise

I see. You mean, it's a trotskyist life-form, Jim, but not as we know it.

 

[dennisr]

I see. You mean, it's a trotskyist life-form, Jim, but not as we know it.

Thaat may well be how you would phrase it 'captain'