Voting Green 'Is A Waste' - Clegg

[Azrael]

Azrael - the Lib Dems, despite their occasional forays into tax etc, buy into a generally laissez faire analysis of capitalism, as befits their liberal roots. They are in favour of global free trade, believe that the market can relatively trivially be tamed to produce social goods, and that infinite growth is possible on a finite planet. Greens, on the other hand, believe in localisation, large-scale alterations in the market, and steady state economics.

Thanks for the explanation.

Not sure the difference is so very great, mind. The Oxymorons (as my rebranding suggests) are a coalition of two incompatible economic creeds, social democracy and liberalism. The social democrats push hard for supertaxes and billions to be ploughed into the NHS and other utilities. The Lib Dems seem to have big-state "throw money at it" instincts as a result, such as proposing to solve crime by hiring thousands of new police officers (despite the fact we already have more than we've ever had, just doing the wrong thing).

Ultimately economics are a means to an end. Culturally the Greens and Lib Dems really are peas in an organic pod. If the social democrats and the liberals can thrash out their differences for a common end, I'm sure the Greens could join the party!

 

[lewislewis]

fuck no, we can't even manage a non aggression pact with Plaid mostly (as I've been told by a big-ish wig in the Wales GP) as they're pro nuclear and want to build more bypasses, as I suspect are/do the LibDems, as well as carrying on privatising things and general economic liberalism

Not true. Plaid's leader (Ieuan Wyn Jones, Minister for Transport & Economic Development in the Welsh Government) supports a nuclear power station in his constituency as the current one is the biggest employer on the island and they're fucked when it's gone. He's against party policy on it.

Bypasses, well Ieuan cancelled the M4 relief road to invest the money in rail instead, and cancelled the Cardiff Airport Link Road to invest in bus routes and rail, and the Green Party in Wales backed him. Most people criticised his transport policy saying there isn't enough money for roads! It has to be the most sustainable transport policy in the UK.

As for privatising things, no chance. The Welsh Government is the only administration in the UK that operates an interventionist scheme to save jobs, the 'Pro Act' scheme, costing £48m and so far saving 6,000 jobs in Wales. The scheme has been rejected by Ministers in England and even by the SNP in Scotland. The Scottish Marxist academic Gregor Gall visited Plaid's conference and praised Plaid for this policy saying it is the only evidence in the UK of a government cutting against neo-liberalism during the recession.

The Greens in Wales are not really an entity, they're the sixth party, although they did beat the BNP which is always nice to see. Is suspect alot of their potential support already goes to Plaid.

Alot of the Green support in Wales tends to comes from English migrants who are keen on the environment (and responsible for alot of innovative projects in the countryside) but couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Welsh nationalist party. It's good that they have an electoral home, but the Greens should ally with Plaid to drag Plaid to an even more sustainable footing. As it stands the Greens don't even have any councillors in Wales.

Monbiot has seen the light I expect more green-conscious people to follow suit.

The fact you have a previous alliance with Plaid makes the case even stronger.

 

[agricola]

Not true. Plaid's leader (Ieuan Wyn Jones, Minister for Transport & Economic Development in the Welsh Government) supports a nuclear power station in his constituency as the current one is the biggest employer on the island and they're fucked when it's gone. He's against party policy on it.

Bypasses, well Ieuan cancelled the M4 relief road to invest the money in rail instead, and cancelled the Cardiff Airport Link Road to invest in bus routes and rail, and the Green Party in Wales backed him. Most people criticised his transport policy saying there isn't enough money for roads! It has to be the most sustainable transport policy in the UK.

As for privatising things, no chance. The Welsh Government is the only administration in the UK that operates an interventionist scheme to save jobs, the 'Pro Act' scheme, costing £48m and so far saving 6,000 jobs in Wales. The scheme has been rejected by Ministers in England and even by the SNP in Scotland. The Scottish Marxist academic Gregor Gall visited Plaid's conference and praised Plaid for this policy saying it is the only evidence in the UK of a government cutting against neo-liberalism during the recession.

The Greens in Wales are not really an entity, they're the sixth party, although they did beat the BNP which is always nice to see. Is suspect alot of their potential support already goes to Plaid.

Alot of the Green support in Wales tends to comes from English migrants who are keen on the environment (and responsible for alot of innovative projects in the countryside) but couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Welsh nationalist party. It's good that they have an electoral home, but the Greens should ally with Plaid to drag Plaid to an even more sustainable footing. As it stands the Greens don't even have any councillors in Wales.

Monbiot has seen the light I expect more green-conscious people to follow suit.

The fact you have a previous alliance with Plaid makes the case even stronger.

Indeed, though one has to also give some credit to parts of Labour in Wales as well - as a government resulting from a combination of the two parties, the WAG is infinitely superior to anything coming out of London, or Edinburgh for that matter.

 

[lewislewis]

You're right Welsh Labour have played a key role and they were reasonably progressive even before the coalition with Plaid.

Their MPs are a different story, the Welsh Labour MPs are using their veto to stop us making laws on Welsh language rights and ending the right to buy council houses.

Hopefully we will get our referendum soon and then the veto will be gone. However we'll still only have 60% of Scotland's powers.

 

[agricola]

You're right Welsh Labour have played a key role and they were reasonably progressive even before the coalition with Plaid.

Their MPs are a different story, the Welsh Labour MPs are using their veto to stop us making laws on Welsh language rights and ending the right to buy council houses.

Hopefully we will get our referendum soon and then the veto will be gone. However we'll still only have 60% of Scotland's powers.

Well yes, but I suppose thats another negative to having a lot of safe Labour seats - we get more of the worst kind of New Labour drone parachuted in to them. As for the referendum, I know you commented on the other thread but, given Brown's comments there, I cant see them letting it happen before the next election (though perversely I can see the Tories doing it given the political advantages they would accrue from increased regionalization).

 

[lewislewis]

Well yes, but I suppose thats another negative to having a lot of safe Labour seats - we get more of the worst kind of New Labour drone parachuted in to them. As for the referendum, I know you commented on the other thread but, given Brown's comments there, I cant see them letting it happen before the next election (though perversely I can see the Tories doing it given the political advantages they would accrue from increased regionalization).

Saw your reply there, it would have to be a vote in the Assembly then the MPs would have their chance to veto it. If Labour MPs vetoed it there would be civil war in the Welsh Labour party, it would be unthinkable really. There's a strain of thought that says Labour will usher it through so that they can make laws in Wales post-General Election to piss off the Tories.

 

[joevsimp]

Not true. Plaid's leader (Ieuan Wyn Jones, Minister for Transport & Economic Development in the Welsh Government) supports a nuclear power station in his constituency as the current one is the biggest employer on the island and they're fucked when it's gone. He's against party policy on it.

Bypasses, well Ieuan cancelled the M4 relief road to invest the money in rail instead, and cancelled the Cardiff Airport Link Road to invest in bus routes and rail, and the Green Party in Wales backed him. Most people criticised his transport policy saying there isn't enough money for roads! It has to be the most sustainable transport policy in the UK.

As for privatising things, no chance. The Welsh Government is the only administration in the UK that operates an interventionist scheme to save jobs, the 'Pro Act' scheme, costing £48m and so far saving 6,000 jobs in Wales. The scheme has been rejected by Ministers in England and even by the SNP in Scotland. The Scottish Marxist academic Gregor Gall visited Plaid's conference and praised Plaid for this policy saying it is the only evidence in the UK of a government cutting against neo-liberalism during the recession.

The Greens in Wales are not really an entity, they're the sixth party, although they did beat the BNP which is always nice to see. Is suspect alot of their potential support already goes to Plaid.

Alot of the Green support in Wales tends to comes from English migrants who are keen on the environment (and responsible for alot of innovative projects in the countryside) but couldn't bring themselves to vote for a Welsh nationalist party. It's good that they have an electoral home, but the Greens should ally with Plaid to drag Plaid to an even more sustainable footing. As it stands the Greens don't even have any councillors in Wales.

Monbiot has seen the light I expect more green-conscious people to follow suit.

The fact you have a previous alliance with Plaid makes the case even stronger.

I did mean Lib Dems wanting to privatise things, not Plaid, soz for confusion

As for everything else I totally agree with you, this guy I spoke to is hoping to become Wales' first Green councillor, in Monmouth, which I held back from pointing out isn't properly Welsh in many opinions and probably doesn't have the strongest Plaid vote

As a hypothetical English Migrant I'd probably back the greens at locals or an applicable local Independent, and Plaid for assembly and euros, I think if Wales wants independence and can make it work then why not, just build a railway that can get you from Cardiff to Bangor in less 5 hours and not via England first

 

[lewislewis]

I did mean Lib Dems wanting to privatise things, not Plaid, soz for confusion

As for everything else I totally agree with you, this guy I spoke to is hoping to become Wales' first Green councillor, in Monmouth, which I held back from pointing out isn't properly Welsh in many opinions and probably doesn't have the strongest Plaid vote

As a hypothetical English Migrant I'd probably back the greens at locals or an applicable local Independent, and Plaid for assembly and euros, I think if Wales wants independence and can make it work then why not, just build a railway that can get you from Cardiff to Bangor in less 5 hours and not via England first

Haha true about Monmouth, rumour has it Plaid's main activist there has a 20 year plan to win the seat

I'd like to see the two parties merge to be honest or at least avoid standing against each other. A joint Plaid-Green ticket would've topped the list for the European elections in Wales, and with a few thousand more votes would've got both Plaid and the Greens an MEP. As it stands we finished third and the Greens sixth, with UKIP getting the seat that would've gone to the Greens.

 

[joevsimp]

Haha true about Monmouth, rumour has it Plaid's main activist there has a 20 year plan to win the seat

I'd like to see the two parties merge to be honest or at least avoid standing against each other. A joint Plaid-Green ticket would've topped the list for the European elections in Wales, and with a few thousand more votes would've got both Plaid and the Greens an MEP. As it stands we finished third and the Greens sixth, with UKIP getting the seat that would've gone to the Greens.

could do, there was an ammendment passed at conference to allow for joint PR slates and the like, but we couldn't have linked up with Plaid for the Euro's anyway, still not s ure there's much appetite for a link with Plaid though, this amendment was aimed firmly at Respect

I hope we do get one or too AMs in the fullness of time though, I hope Plaid manage to retake lost ground from the tories too