voting for your local police

[Fedayn]

Not really - there is a substantial difference between the election of politicians and electing senior police officers, who - in this country at least - often have legal responsibilities and duties to perform. One also wonders whether the democratic election of senior officers would actually improve accountability - the Police are already accountable to the law for their actions, and its not difficult to see how a "democratic mandate" would actually lessen the accountability of a senior police officer (after all, this does already happen to an extent with politicians).

In short, I agree with gosub - the police should be depoliticized, though how this should be achieved is hard to see, as the Government and opposition parties do like to make pro- and anti-Police noises from time to time, whether they actually have a point or not.

The point I was referring to is the election of local police committees. The idea of electing chief police officers etc is well down the line. But an immediate and positive step would be to organise the police so they they are accountable to the local community through democratically elected police committees.

The accountability to local communities would be for exactly that reaosn, so that the police have the trust and support of that community because their priorities and work is democratically decided by that community. That can only make them more accountable.

 

[Fedayn]

Whats wrong with having either a police board or a senior (the senior) police officer voted in by local people.

If you agree with it it must be mad.

I have already indicated I am in favour of elected klocally accountable committes.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Yes, and no - the Police do have a clear legal basis for carrying out their work (basically, PACE and assorted other bits of legislation) and are accountable to the Courts when things go wrong for stuff they are responsible for.

Isn't PACE more about operational stuff than priorities though? Obviously there has to be codes of practise about how operations are carried out. (And it makes sense for these to be national).

Surely the issue here is about how operations are prioritised on a local level?

 

[gosub]

Whats wrong with having either a police board or a senior (the senior) police officer voted in by local people.

coz it ends up with the minority that didn't vote for the right one being left in the dwang

 

[Zachor]

The point I was referring to is the election of local police committees. The idea of electing chief police officers etc is well down the line. But an immediate and positive step would be to organise the police so they they are accountable to the local community through democratically elected police committees.

Agree that election of police committees would a) be a good first step to democratise police decision making and b) would get people used to the idea of voting for police chiefs otherwise in early stages people may vote for the joke 'boss hogg' candidate.

The accountability to local communities would be for exactly that reaosn, so that the police have the trust and support of that community because their priorities and work is democratically decided by that community. That can only make them more accountable.

It would increase local accountability and would also be a bonus for those who live in dodgy one party states of having the police automatically follow the timeserving councillors lines re crime and police policy.

 

[Zachor]

coz it ends up with the minority that didn't vote for the right one being left in the dwang

But surely thats democracy? If I vote Tory at the next election and they don't get in then although I may grumble about it I have to accept the result as its the will of the majority.

 

[Fedayn]

coz it ends up with the minority that didn't vote for the right one being left in the dwang

As opposed to the majority of local cimmunities already having their interets ignored by the police because it doesn't fit in with their targets.

 

[Zachor]

As opposed to the majority of local cimmunities already having their interets ignored by the police because it doesn't fit in with their targets.

Spot on.

The police are following central govt targets which may have no relevance to the problems on the ground which people are worried about.

 

[agricola]

The accountability to local communities would be for exactly that reaosn, so that the police have the trust and support of that community because their priorities and work is democratically decided by that community. That can only make them more accountable.

It would not necessarily make them more accountable.

For a start, you are assuming that the people who would get voted in would only ever have the communities interests at heart - what would happen if, for example, the BNP (or some other extremist group) got control of one of these committees?

Secondly, and following on from the first point there is a serious point about whether a local committee is going to be in possession of enough experience or knowledge to make informed decisions about what the best use of local police resources are. Would they have full access to police intelligence? Would they necessarily be composed of an accurate cross-section of the community (given the low turnout in council and EU elections, this is a serious problem)? What control would they have over budgets or officer numbers?

Surely the issue here is about how operations are prioritised on a local level?

It is, but it shouldnt be.

 

[agricola]

Spot on.

The police are following central govt targets which may have no relevance to the problems on the ground which people are worried about.

Those targets are imposed by a Government, mainly led by a group of democratically elected local representatives, voted for by people on the ground.

 

[gosub]

As opposed to the majority of local cimmunities already having their interets ignored by the police because it doesn't fit in with their targets.

Why would you need elected policing in order to abolish targets?

eta In fact you wouldn't be abolishing targets, merely changing who sets them.

 

[Fedayn]

It would not necessarily make them more accountable.

For a start, you are assuming that the people who would get voted in would only ever have the communities interests at heart - what would happen if, for example, the BNP (or some other extremist group) got control of one of these committees?

Secondly, and following on from the first point there is a serious point about whether a local committee is going to be in possession of enough experience or knowledge to make informed decisions about what the best use of local police resources are. Would they have full access to police intelligence? Would they necessarily be composed of an accurate cross-section of the community (given the low turnout in council and EU elections, this is a serious problem)? What control would they have over budgets or officer numbers?

The BNP might gain control of a council, that's no reason to stop local elections. Why is the worst case scenario always used to denigrate the idea of extending local democracy and accountability?

Why shouldn't local communities have full control, budgetting included, in policing? We are oft told that the police are servants of the people. In reality they like to think of themselves as masters. If they are servants then they shoul;d be democratically accountable to those people and those communities they serve.

 

[Fedayn]

Why would you need elected policing in order to abolish targets?

Where did I say it would? I'm simply arguing for locally accountable democratic control of the police. Your claim about the voting minority doesn't stand up when the vast majority are alerady ignored in favour of police targtes imposed from central government. You've not made one argument for increased accountability just mumbled and moaned about the extension of local democratic control of policing.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

eta In fact you wouldn't be abolishing targets, merely changing who sets them.

Exactly!

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I think it's a bit defeatist to simply allow the police to operate how they like on the grounds that democratising their operations will inevitably make them puppets for political parties.

i thinkit's foolhardy to assume that this course of action wouldn't result in anything else...

unless their are working examples in the UK of a group taking over from the state sanctioned vigilanty forces and this leading to an improvement and more community based focus...

 

[Zachor]

Those targets are imposed by a Government, mainly led by a group of democratically elected local representatives, voted for by people on the ground.

Hmmm! up to a point I can see where you are coming from but the issue for me is centrally imposed targets may not always be appropriate.

 

[Zachor]

It would not necessarily make them more accountable.

For a start, you are assuming that the people who would get voted in would only ever have the communities interests at heart - what would happen if, for example, the BNP (or some other extremist group) got control of one of these committees?

.

I think this problem could be easily avoided by putting in a 'you must serve and be seen to serve all sections of the community equally' as part of the contract for the job.

 

[gosub]

Targets are bollox.


If not Phillipines then Baltimore

 

[Zachor]

If you agree with it it must be mad.
.

Aha I see there is now the U75 "Zachor test" anything I agree with must be beyond the pale

 

[agricola]

The BNP might gain control of a council, that's no reason to stop local elections. Why is the worst case scenario always used to denigrate the idea of extending local democracy and accountability?

It would not extend accountability - the Police are already appropriately accountable, as has been said. All putting them under the control of a committee would do would be to effectively legitimize police actions taken at the behest of that committee.

Also, the case of the BNP is relevant because you are talking about "extending local democracy". The Police should (and to a large case do) deal with people without fear or favour, and be totally impartial. Having the BNP, or some other wackjob group, setting budgets and operational targets would be a disaster (just as having NL setting budgets and operational targets has been, to an extent).

Why shouldn't local communities have full control, budgetting included, in policing?

Because not every BOCU is an island, there are other demands on boroughs (to use the Met as an example) beyond those at the local level - take the abstractions of officers yesterday and today as an example. Secondly there are always going to be conflicts between what the "local community" (as expressed in the small number of people who vote or turn up to meetings) want and what criminal statistics / intelligence suggest is the best use of police resources. The adage about people always complaining about dog mess on the pavement is relevant here.

We are oft told that the police are servants of the people. In reality they like to think of themselves as masters. If they are servants then they shoul;d be democratically accountable to those people and those communities they serve.

Nonsense. You can be accountable without being democratically elected, just as you can be democratically elected without being accountable.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Nonsense. You can be accountable without being democratically elected, just as you can be democratically elected without being accountable.

The question is - accountable to who?

 

[Zachor]

The question is - accountable to who?

The voters ideally.

 

[agricola]

The question is - accountable to who?

The law, and Parliament.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

The law, and Parliament.

We've already established that everyone is accountable to the law, I think?

Parliament isn't very representative of the community I live in...

 

[XR75]

Local cops for local people.There is no justice for you in here.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Local cops for local people.There is no justice for you in here.

try linking from a source which allows hotlinking

 

[CyberRose]

It would mean the police having to operate on a much more obvious (and time-limited) form of public consent than the current lot do.

Exactly like the government then?!

Under no circumstances should public services become politicised because that is exactly what electing their officials would lead to. Opposition parties would use it to undermine their opponents, the governing party would use it to boost popularity and the actual issues where police are needed would be overlooked depending on whatever the "flavour of the month" crime was in the media...

 

[agricola]

Exactly like the government then?!

Under no circumstances should public services become politicised because that is exactly what electing their officials would lead to. Opposition parties would use it to undermine their opponents, the governing party would use it to boost popularity and the actual issues where police are needed would be overlooked depending on whatever the "flavour of the month" crime was in the media...

Hear hear.

 

[CyberRose]

Or another way to think about this question:

And the Labour candidate for Chief Constable is...
The Conservative candidate for Chief Constable is...
The Liberal...etc

Can you imagine the policies of a Tory controlled constabulary?! Council estates would be left to fend from themselves (which probably sounds like a good thing to some of the middle class anarchists who have allowed themselves to become completely detached from reality) and posh estates would have some kind of South African security operation protecting them from the poor and the ethnic minorities!

 

[likesfish]

we had our local commander wittering on about the fact that there had'nt been a single racist incident in the last month recorded and that we really needed to record them.
to a comlpetely fucking white audience its moulsecoomb in brighton
its many things multicultural it ain't does'nt matter how much the council want to go on about the BME is a real tiny minority in brighton.
not saying we don't have racist fuckwits I'm sure we do but focusing on them when there does'nt seem to be a problem seems slighty odd.