Violent mugger gets little slap on wrist

[untethered]

How about we try and help people understand their anger and hurt, rather than just let them act it out and hurt other people?

Just a thought.

How about letting the courts punish people for their crimes and leave the psychology to psychologists?

Just a thought.

 

[untethered]

The trouble with Daily Mail "Our Judges are a disgrace" type stories is that there are always the exceptions that prove the rule. Maybe this guy is a reformed character. its surely not impossible. IMHO its best not to judge verdicts unless you know the individuals involved.

It doesn't matter whether he's a reformed character or not.

The court is there to hand out a punishment, not to make people better. Otherwise, the system becomes a mockery where criminals escape punishment if they can show that subsequently they have apparently mended their ways thus far.

Where is the justice for the victims? Where is the deterrent?

The courts should not consider mitigating circumstances at the time of sentencing. If you've been on a mugging spree for the last two years and now you've got a scholarship to Oxford, well, your jail sentence probably means you'll be losing that scholarship. That is a consequence of your own actions, no-one else's.

 

[Blagsta]

Agreed.

But is the sort of person predisposed to violent robbery (and against regular people, rather than big buisness) going to be a particularly nice sort of person?

People aren't one dimensional y'know.

 

[Blagsta]

So he went robbing as he was hurt and angry, rather than wanting money without having to work for it?

 

[Blagsta]

How about letting the courts punish people for their crimes and leave the psychology to psychologists?

Just a thought.

If there was more support for people, maybe they wouldn't get to the courts in the first place.

 

[Blagsta]

The court is there to hand out a punishment, not to make people better.

Round and round it goes...

What a joke.

 

[baldrick]

If there was more support for people, maybe they wouldn't get to the courts in the first place.

Probably absolutely true.

But now that they are there, for the second time for the same crime, I don't think it's that unreasonable to expect a custodial sentence.

 

[untethered]

If there was more support for people, maybe they wouldn't get to the courts in the first place.

You're assuming that some people will inevitably turn to crime unless they get material and moral support from the state.

As far as I know, people tend to get the material support from the state when they need it. As for moral support, that's none of the state's business.

You seem to be implying that the circumstances of this case are the state's faililngs rather than those of the individual concerned. How very sad and predictable, not to mention patronising of the far greater number of people in similar circumstances that are prepared to work hard and stay out of trouble.

 

[Blagsta]

Probably absolutely true.

But now that they are there, for the second time for the same crime, I don't think it's that unreasonable to expect a custodial sentence.

True. However, given that there are people arriving who have had traumatic experiences in war torn countries, maybe some help with them understanding their hurt and anger might be a good idea, before they act it out and hurt others?

 

[Blagsta]

You're assuming that some people will inevitably turn to crime unless they get material and moral support from the state.

No I'm not.

As far as I know, people tend to get the material support from the state when they need it. As for moral support, that's none of the state's business.

You seem to be implying that the circumstances of this case are the state's faililngs rather than those of the individual concerned. How very sad and predictable, not to mention patronising of the far greater number of people in similar circumstances that are prepared to work hard and stay out of trouble.

What the fuck are you on about?

 

[untethered]

What the fuck are you on about?

You said that if more people got support they wouldn't end up in court. I assumed you were talking about support from the state and implying that such support was lacking in this case, which presumably could be considered a failing.

Perhaps you should expand your point so we can understand exactly what you mean.

 

[Dubversion]

All I know about this indvidual is that he carried out a string of violent robberies.

What else is there to know?

what simplistic bullshit.

 

[Blagsta]

You said that if more people got support they wouldn't end up in court. I assumed you were talking about support from the state and implying that such support was lacking in this case, which presumably could be considered a failing.

Perhaps you should expand your point so we can understand exactly what you mean.

I was pointing out that if someone has had traumatic experiences, they can often act out their anger towards other people. If they are given the opportunity to talk through, think about and understand their experiences, they are less likely to act out. Basic psychology. Although of course, you don't seem to be interested in understanding anything, just being a knee jerk unthinking reactionary.

 

[baldrick]

what simplistic bullshit.

to a certain extent, I agree with PO.

i don't think there are any mitigating circumstances in this case. do you know different?

 

[untethered]

I was pointing out that if someone has experienced traumatic experiences, they can often act out their anger towards other people. If they are given the opportunity to talk through, think about and understand their experiences, they are less likely to act out. Basic psychology.

That may be true in some cases but we have no idea whether it is true in this one. Even if it were, it doesn't excuse the behaviour of the offender or excuse them from punishment.

Although of course, you don't seem to be interested in understanding anything, just being a knee jerk unthinking reactionary.

The proper business of the courts is to provide justice. That means taking into account the circumstances prevailing at the time of the crime, but also considering its impact on the victims and the wider society. It is my opinion that this particular sentence leans too far towards excusing and not enough towards condemning and that a full understanding of the case would lead to a tougher punishment rather than the one delivered.

 

[poster342002]

I'm reminded of the old joke:

A social worker comes across a mugging-victim bleeding in the road. Horrified, the social worker cries "the person who did this needs help, quickly!".

 

[Blagsta]

That may be true in some cases but we have no idea whether it is true in this one.

If you followed the thread, you will see that I was replying to Giles' point.

Even if it were, it doesn't excuse the behaviour of the offender or excuse them from punishment.

Who said anything about excusing?

The proper business of the courts is to provide justice. That means taking into account the circumstances prevailing at the time of the crime, but also considering its impact on the victims and the wider society. It is my opinion that this particular sentence leans too far towards excusing and not enough towards condemning and that a full understanding of the case would lead to a tougher punishment rather than the one delivered.

So people come out of prison with all their problems (and more) and commit more crime. Good thinking batman!

 

[Blagsta]

I'm reminded of the old joke:

A social worker comes across a mugging-victim bleeding in the road. Horrified, the social worker cries "the person who did this needs help, quickly!".

Hilarious.


Why do some people have such resistance to thinking about why people behave the way they do?

Don't answer that btw, I know the answer.

 

[TopCat]

If there was more support for people, maybe they wouldn't get to the courts in the first place.

Some people, out of choice, are nasty violent bastards who enjoy preying on others and deserve to be punished.

 

[Dubversion]

to a certain extent, I agree with PO.

i don't think there are any mitigating circumstances in this case. do you know different?

I don't know enough to pass comment or make a judgement. Pacific Ocean seems to think simply listing the crimes is sufficient to reach a conclusion.

 

[untethered]

So people come out of prison with all their problems (and more) and commit more crime. Good thinking batman!

I believe that it is neither realistic nor desirable to attempt to reform people by imprisoning them. Prisons are grim places whose primary purpose is to punish the offender and thus restore the scales of justice between the offender and the offended.

If the offender decides to behave themselves in future, that's good, but I think it's naive to expect that the criminal justice system can make that happen or expect it to.

 

[TopCat]

I don't think experiencing absolute horrors is any excuse to inflict evilness on others. When I hear of people excusing their child abuse for instance on the grounds that they themselves were abused it make me , well very angry. They more than anyone should know the effects of being abused, if anything I would heap more punishment on them not be more supportive or understanding.

 

[TopCat]

I believe that it is neither realistic nor desirable to attempt to reform people by imprisoning them. Prisons are grim places whose primary purpose is to punish the offender and thus restore the scales of justice between the offender and the offended.

If the offender decides to behave themselves in future, that's good, but I think it's naive to expect that the criminal justice system can make that happen or expect it to.

Prison certainly "works " in that those locked up can't inflict more crap on those outside.

 

[poster342002]

Why do some people have such resistance to thinking about why people behave the way they do?

Because, at times, it can end up crossing a line into excusing these sort of acts. Even worse, it can occasionally turn into seeing the victim as a tiresome niusance who'se irritating calls for redress are getting in the way of undertanding the perpetrator's pain. I'm NOT saying any of that's what's happening on this thread, btw.

 

[poster342002]

I don't think experiencing absolute horrors is any excuse to inflict evilness on others. When I hear of people excusing their child abuse for instance on the grounds that they themselves were abused it make me , well very angry. They more than anyone should know the effects of being abused, if anything I would heap more punishment on them not be more supportive or understanding.

Amen. Top post. I know of someome who's suffered child abuse and who's NOT gone on to do anything like that themselves - and they share your opinion you set out above.

 

[Blagsta]

Some people, out of choice, are nasty violent bastards who enjoy preying on others and deserve to be punished.

I don't think it's as simple as that. IME, dig into the past of most "nasty bastards" and there is some trauma, abuse or neglect. This is not excusing and not negating that people have choices and not saying that people don't deserve punishment. However, people also deserve a chance to understand and think about their anger. Merely locking people up solves precisely fuck all.

 

[Blagsta]

I don't think experiencing absolute horrors is any excuse to inflict evilness on others. When I hear of people excusing their child abuse for instance on the grounds that they themselves were abused it make me , well very angry. They more than anyone should know the effects of being abused, if anything I would heap more punishment on them not be more supportive or understanding.

Who has mentioned excusing?

 

[Blagsta]

I believe that it is neither realistic nor desirable to attempt to reform people by imprisoning them. Prisons are grim places whose primary purpose is to punish the offender and thus restore the scales of justice between the offender and the offended.

If the offender decides to behave themselves in future, that's good, but I think it's naive to expect that the criminal justice system can make that happen or expect it to.

If the offender decides? Just like that? With no help?

 

[Blagsta]

Because, at times, it can end up crossing a line into excusing these sort of acts (I'n NOT saying that's what's happening on this thread). Even worse, it can occasionally turn into seeing the victim as a tiresome niusance who'se irritating calls for redress are getting in the way of undertanding the perpetrator's pain.

What a ridiculous charicature.

 

[Blagsta]

Amen. Top post. I know of someome who's suffered child abuse and who's NOT gone on to do anything like that themselves - and they share your opinion you set out above.

Fucks sake.

No one is saying that everyone who experiences x will go on to do y.