Violent anti-G8-protests in Rostock....Yay or Nay ?

[BlackSpecs]

Apparently things are kicking off big time in Germany with running battles between the police and " Black Block " anarchists .( This is even before the arrival of the Fat Cats ) :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6714429.stm

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/02/g-8.protest.ap/index.html

Judging from the T.V.-footage it's not a good day to be a german copper ! And yet , I can't help but feel that these sort of protesters fuck-up the peaceful message the majority want to get across and that they just play into the hands of the likes of Sky-News etc. !

So , Violent-protest : A good way to get your message across or Molotov-Cocktails of Intellectual piss ?

 

[jiggajagga]

Real people, real balls. People of Rostock I salute you.

All this "peaceful, gentle" bollocks does fuck all!
And while they are taking the fascists to task in Rostock what do we do?..... Blow whistles on boats on the Thames!! I bet the pollies are cowering under their money piles!
I remember years ago when thse anti globalizationists started, crying out about job losses, loss of rights, mass movements on business et al. Were they right? Are they right now?

We were peaceful when the G8 was held here.... Whats changed?

 

[Groucho]

The German authorities had warned in advance that there were serious concerns that far-left groups were planning violent attacks.

'Violent protesters have hijacked the demonstration' say Beeb.

Peaceful protester (Action Aid) has condemned police bahavior for provoking violence 'I'm not saying the police started it, it's just what I saw.'

BBC have asked Action Aid if he really wants to be associated with violent neo-Nazi's making nazi salutes. Is that a feature? I've not seen no pictures yet of neo-Nazi elements.

 

[jiggajagga]

The beeb comes out with its usual bollocks.
Sissons speaking to anti global in UK:- "These people with their violence take away from you what all the rally was all about".

FFS! Do you think we would have seen 1 freakin second of the rally on the news if there had been no violence? Fucking Bob Hope!!

 

[BlackSpecs]

FFS! Do you think we would have seen 1 freakin second of the rally on the news if there had been no violence? Fucking Bob Hope!!

It is always thus !!!
Interesting though to hear that even the german police is criticizing the US for imposing very strict crowd-controlling-rules for the protection of "Dubya" (soon to arrive) ! A spokes-person for the german police was quoted as saying that his force had to deal with the anger that's directed at politicians " hiding behind fences "

 

[grogwilton]

Neo Nazis in Germany in the last years been trying to pitch themselves as the cool hip radicals to join.

IE out go the bomber jackets and bovver boots (though some still wear this) in come the black hoodies, che guevara t shirts and palestinian scarves. Also there slogans are a lot more left sounding now eg: 'Anti capitalist, anti imperialist, free, social (as in for people over profit), national!' They have also capitalised on sections of the german lefts diabolical position on Israel/Palestine and now champion themselves as the biggest supporters of the Palestinian struggle in Germany. Which only increases some of the Germans lefts idiotic position on palestine.

It was something I was thinking about, whether the Nazis would attend the G8 I reckon they wont just because of the sheer kicking theyd get from antifa.

 

[magic.d]

you will find some more footage of the riots at http://www.spiegel.de under "multimedia" -> "krawalle in rostock" in the middle of the page (not top left - just scroll down). it's in german but the scenes a very impressive.

 

[jæd]

All this "peaceful, gentle" bollocks does fuck all!
And while they are taking the fascists to task in Rostock what do we do?..... Blow whistles on boats on the Thames!! I bet the pollies are cowering under their money piles!
I remember years ago when thse anti globalizationists started, crying out about job losses, loss of rights, mass movements on business et al. Were they right? Are they right now?

We were peaceful when the G8 was held here.... Whats changed?

So invading countries and removing their dictators is bad... Harassing democratically elected leaders is good...

And when has violent demonstrations ever got anything done, either...?

 

[grogwilton]

Just had a look at some of those videos and it appears the Neo Nazi NPD did want to demonstrate at the G8 but wasnt allowed, and so had a smaller demonstration in another town, of about 250 people.

 

[magic.d]

the npd (german nazi party) wanted to demonstrate in schwerin but got an assembly ban by the bundesverfassungsgericht (german high court ?). so smaller groups of the bastards started illegal demonstrations in several cities in north germany.

 

[Kaka Tim]

So invading countries and removing their dictators is bad... Harassing democratically elected leaders is good...

And when has violent demonstrations ever got anything done, either...?

Poll tax, womens sufferage, brixton 81, fall of milosovic, fall of ceausescu, Seattle, Prague and Genoa, south africa, french revolution ... I could go on.


Confronting overwheening and oppresive power = good. 'democratically elected' or not. Without resistance, power would roll right over us.

And as big fuck off riot agaisnt the Iraq War might have had more effect than 1.5 million people politely strolling around london.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

So invading countries and removing their dictators is bad... Harassing democratically elected leaders is good...

And when has violent demonstrations ever got anything done, either...?

Big problem for all in the movement:

Direct action: limited results at best beyond individual learning of activists, mostly a standard media hit.

Demos: Basically shown to achieve little

Participating in elections as non-mainstream parties: very uphill work against the establishment machine.

Engaging with autorities, lobbying etc: Easy to get co-opted and comprimised, fobbed off.

Developing alternative media: A lot of positives actually, but still hard to break through cracks and achieve change.

-----------
So all who are concerned try different things, and all those things are open to criticisms and learning lessons. Its easy to be critical, and neccessary too but let us hope we continue to learn and find new ways to engage folk and change things.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

...

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

opps - duplicate post edited

 

[grogwilton]

Poll tax, womens sufferage, brixton 81, fall of milosovic, fall of ceausescu, Seattle, Prague and Genoa, south africa, french revolution ... I could go on.


Confronting overwheening and oppresive power = good. 'democratically elected' or not. Without resistance, power would roll right over us.

And as big fuck off riot agaisnt the Iraq War might have had more effect than 1.5 million people politely strolling around london.

Seattle,Genoa and Prague didnt actually achieve anything though did they? Other then getting the arguments in the news.

The others did, because it was seen that people who were not normally involved in protest, and who made up a majority or significant minority of their community to actually frighten the establishment. The riots that take place at G8 protests dont actually scare the establishment as they correctly realise that its just the sum of europes anarchists, when compared to the european population its tiny.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying violence never achieves anthing, it does, but only in certain situations, and just getting everyone in europe who's up for a ruck in one place and then having a ruck, whilst it may be fun, isnt going to change anything anyitme soon. Im not against people doing it, i just dont do it because I dont think it'll achieve that much.

 

[jiggajagga]

Poll tax, womens sufferage, brixton 81, fall of milosovic, fall of ceausescu, Seattle, Prague and Genoa, south africa, french revolution ... I could go on.


Confronting overwheening and oppresive power = good. 'democratically elected' or not. Without resistance, power would roll right over us.

And as big fuck off riot agaisnt the Iraq War might have had more effect than 1.5 million people politely strolling around london.

Well said Kaka, beat me to it!

 

[Groucho]

And as big fuck off riot agaisnt the Iraq War might have had more effect than 1.5 million people politely strolling around london.

Undoubtedly.

What is absolutely clear to me though is that revolutionaries cannot seperate themselves off from the rest of the movement. Small groups of masked protesters deliberately and obviously trying to turn a protest to violence would not achieve a 'big fuck off riot'. It would simply isolate those doing it, and perhaps succeed in breakinga couple of windows.

We certainly need a more miltant anti-war movement, but that would not be the way to do it.

The police adopted a very low profile on the big anti-war protests. During the war a section of one of the protests 'spontaneously' left the rally and blocked Oxford Street. The police got in a tizz but still did not react.

The police heavy handed response to a sit down protest during the Poll Tax demo provoked the violence. They lost the battle and lost control of the streets and failed in their objective of discrediting themovement. They learnt their lessons. They usually pick fights they can win and where their actions will not alienate the mass of the public.

The mood around the war was strong opposition. The kids who walked out of school were way ahead of the rest of the population though in militancy. We needed strikes against the war - there were very few.

I was at the two biggest Wapping riots, Poll Tax, Welling, G8 in Edinburgh/Gleneagles. Whilst Wapping and Welling were police orchestrated assaults, the pressure points that led to 'riots' at the others actually take place at demo after demo. The police response is usually the catalyst that turns a little spot of bother or fun into a 'riot'.

 

[grogwilton]

Spiegel are now showing a video in which a 'autonomous' protester within the black bloc march (before the riot) is clearly seen spitting on a middle class looking woman standing by watching the demo pass. Now whilst he/she isnt representative of the black bloc, they have just given Spiegel exactly what they need to discredit what may be seen as violent protesters angry with the G8 and police to just a bunch of violent and pschychological unstable nutters. What a fucking numpty.

My problem with Black Bloc tactics is not out of any feeling of passifism, more that it attracts this kind of idiot and because of the reality of the way the bloc is organised there is very little room for criticism or confrontation with such moronic individuals, and its as we saw in Genoa its actually very easy for the police to infiltrate this kind of stuff and discredit the bloc that way.

 

[Meltingpot]

I hope we don't see a re run of Seattle, where police dressed all in black posed as activists and started a ruck with a lot of property damage to discredit the anti-globalisation movement.

As I keep saying here, call me cynical but I believe politicians will only move on these issues when they become vote-winners, i.e. when they know they've got the bulk of the populace behind them. If there were painless ways of solving the problem of global poverty and malnutrition, it'd have been done by now.

 

[London_Calling]

Oh to be young and excitable.

It's just football hooligans with placards to middle england (and the like) - what does the violence achieve other than alienate groups with the same aims from one another and (the movement) from the mainstream ?

And people wonder why anti-capitalism is fringe.

Bet they all think it was a great day out though.

 

[TAE]

During the war a section of one of the protests 'spontaneously' left the rally and blocked Oxford Street. The police got in a tizz but still did not react.

If you mean the action right after the first demo which took place when the war had begun ... I was there.

A bunch of people were sitting in Oxford Street and it was very very peaceful - a traditional sit-down protest. The riot police moved in and attacked them, followed by a wall of police vans. If the protesters had not moved, they would have been trampled by the riot police or run-over by the police vans. The batton weilding cops chased us all the way up to Oxford Circus.

 

[aurora green]

Great images!
Thats "chemical spray" in the last shot the police are using to disperse the crowd. This was before they got out the tear gas and water canon...

I think it's important to remember there's a lot of different groups (30,000 people present) all knowing it's capitalism that has to go, and what we're seeing are different tactics combined with fearsome and provocative policing, urging things along..

If I was in Germany I'd doublessly be with the clowns, playing with the riot cops minds' a bit...
but as long as everyone joins in, whatever way they can...
Well, reading that this has happened this morning gives me a bit of hope for the future....
I think we need to take action on every front, and that unity is our strength.Condemning this sort of violence is counter revolutionary.

 

[grogwilton]

Condemning someone spitting on a passive bystander watching the march is counter revolutionary?

 

[rekil]

So invading countries and removing their dictators is bad... Harassing democratically elected leaders is good...

I wasn't aware that the majority of the world's population had voted for the G8 leaders, and the creation and management of supranational institutions like the WTO and IMF. Tell us more.

And when has violent demonstrations ever got anything done, either...?

Already answered.

The wishywashy handwringing reactions to the rioting are just absurd, when one considers the level of violence, corruption and environmental devastation the G8 leaders and assorted other cunties are personally responsible for.

 

[grogwilton]

noones arguing that the protesters are worse then the G8. Im an anti capitalist. I want to see the system overthrown. Im just not sure the tactics of the black bloc arent that helpful for our wider goal- winning more people to the anti capitalist cause, not just at big demos at meetings but in our workplaces and localities.

 

[jæd]

As I keep saying here, call me cynical but I believe politicians will only move on these issues when they become vote-winners, i.e. when they know they've got the bulk of the populace behind them. If there were painless ways of solving the problem of global poverty and malnutrition, it'd have been done by now.

Well yes... One of the problems with the G8 protesters is they spout slogans like "Down with Capitalism". Unless you have a good credible alternative then people aren't going to listen to them. Everyone who knows about the G8 and the protesters has done well out of Capitalism. What are you going to replace it with...? Communism, Anarchy...? Neither of those are going eliminate poverty, and in the past have just increased it...

 

[London_Calling]

Another thought: Intentionally holding these G8 events in cities (rather than away from the public gaze) - so the hooligan element can alienate themselves from the mainstream in front of as many cameras as possible - seems to be a pro-capitalism tactic that's working very well.

Lambs to the media slaughter.

 

[rekil]

noones arguing that the protesters are worse then the G8. Im an anti capitalist. I want to see the system overthrown. Im just not sure the tactics of the black bloc arent that helpful for our wider goal- winning more people to the anti capitalist cause, not just at big demos at meetings but in our workplaces and localities.

Yeah, but I've observed that most of those who claim to be disgusted by what is essentially mickey mouse violence at these summits have no problem supporting and justifying far more extreme violence when it suits their ideology, eg, Iraq, Pinochet, strikebreaking etc. They can fuck off.

The police have a long record of attacking peaceful demos and people using civil disobedience anyway.

 

[grogwilton]

@ London calling: Theyre not in cities though, they used to be a lot more in urban enviroments ie Genoa, Seattle, Prague.

Now theyre more in non urban places: Gleneagles, Heiligendamm, and in the last american one it was actually on an offshore Island with only one bridge connecting it to the mainland.

This makes the meeting easier to police, cuts off the demonstrators from the normal urban public, means transposrt there is harder, there are less facilities and accomodation for demonstrators in place, and also means locals are less likely to get rounded up in the police onslaught as happened in Seattle.

@ copliker: true, but that doesnt change the fact that those who are neither right wingers nor on our side are slightly alienated by the imo fair play stuff like throwing stuff at tooled up filth, and even more alienated by the not fair play stuff (spitting at a woman) that is done by morons attracted by the fair play stuff. Also, Black Bloc groups are so decentralised, and so obssesed with hiding there identity because at the end of the day they can get really screwed for rioting that its almost impossible to identify the mrorons from the genuine anarchists and call them on what their doing and how counter productive it is.

 

[rekil]

Another thought: Intentionally holding these G8 events in cities (rather than away from the public gaze) - so the hooligan element can alienate themselves from the mainstream in front of as many cameras as possible - seems to be a pro-capitalism tactic that's working very well.

Lambs to the media slaughter.

The last G8 meeting to be held in a city was 6 years ago in Genoa. Since then, out of the way places have been deliberately chosen.