Violence dished out to the leaders of the far right

[Spion]

.

 

[Bakunin]

I bet that's exactly what Cheney said when he authorised the enhanced interrogation techniques.

So, someone disagrees with you and you compare them to Cheney? Pretty spurious, really, considering I was very active against a branch of Halliburton, when Cheney was in charge, for a number of years.

I don't actually like the use of force, you know. It's just that I recognise it as being sometimes necessary and, sometimes, the only thing that works as a last resort, when all other avenues have been exhausted.

Again, I'd like those who are resolutely against the use of properly targetted physical force anti-fascism to make some constructive suggestions as to what would work in its place, and I do mean actually work as opposed to people hiding in the comfort zone of their moral high ground.

 

[kyser_soze]

It's rare to see a consistent pacifist. So, you'd have been against WW2, against partisans/resistance movements taking up arms to defend themselves etc?

No I wouldn't, but when does something switch from being self-defence to direct offence? Is Bakunin's argument simply one of 'pre-emptive defence'? Do you think that because, subjectively, you think your cause is right that the ends always justify the meens? Where are the limits on the violence you would view as 'justified'? Where is the line of 'self defence' drawn?

 

[_George]

what would those who oppose matching them with their own methods propose?

ive actually never heard very much about far right types beating up the leaders of left wing parties

 

[kyser_soze]

So, someone disagrees with you and you compare them to Cheney? Pretty spurious, really, considering I was very active against a branch of Halliburton, when Cheney was in charge, for a number of years.

No, all I was doing was making the point that you share a similar practical attitude to 'getting the job done'. Doesn't matter that you actively campaigned against Halliburton - you're still making the same argument about means and ends. This:#

I don't actually like the use of force, you know. It's just that I recognise it as being sometimes necessary and, sometimes, the only thing that works as a last resort, when all other avenues have been exhausted.

How many idealists have started out saying this?

All I'm saying is that as soon as you step onto the cycle of violence it becomes increasingly hard to get off it and the level of violence required rises.

 

[gamma globulins]

In politics, once tarnished, never clean.

 

[TremulousTetra]

So, someone disagrees with you and you compare them to Cheney? Pretty spurious, really, considering I was very active against a branch of Halliburton, when Cheney was in charge, for a number of years.

I don't actually like the use of force, you know. It's just that I recognise it as being sometimes necessary and, sometimes, the only thing that works as a last resort, when all other avenues have been exhausted.

Again, I'd like those who are resolutely against the use of properly targetted physical force anti-fascism to make some constructive suggestions as to what would work in its place, and I do mean actually work as opposed to people hiding in the comfort zone of their moral high ground.

your squirming. There is a world of difference between saying,
1. I'm not against the use of violence.
2. I am for an elite little group, attacking a fascist leaders, on behalf of the working class.

 

[Bakunin]

No, all I was doing was making the point that you share a similar practical attitude to 'getting the job done'. Doesn't matter that you actively campaigned against Halliburton - you're still making the same argument about means and ends. This:#



How many idealists have started out saying this?

All I'm saying is that as soon as you step onto the cycle of violence it becomes increasingly hard to get off it and the level of violence required rises.

I'm a practical person. When faced with a problem I look for practical solutions that will work, not cloud cuckoo land ideas that aren't likely to.

I'm not denying that the use of force has its risks, of course it does, but sometimes it's necessary, and sometimes it's the only thing that some people understand.

 

[TremulousTetra]

ive actually never heard very much about far right types beating up the leaders of left wing parties

heard of Adolf Hitler?

 

[gamma globulins]

....on behalf of the working class.

On percieved behalf

 

[Bakunin]

your squirming. There is a world of difference between saying,
1. I'm not against the use of violence.
2. I am for an elite little group, attacking a fascist leaders, on behalf of the working class.

I'm not squirming at all, my position is pretty clear as far as I can see.

And an accusation of squirming, coming from your good self, is somewhat out of place to put it mildly. And wasn't your beloved SWP (until it became expedient to dump the 'Squads' anyway) quite fond of using such tactics at one time? I don't recall the 'Squads' involving the entire party structure at any time, let alone the working class as a whole.

 

[Spion]

No I wouldn't, but when does something switch from being self-defence to direct offence?

In the case of dealing with fascists, I think defence is quite clearly the act of stopping them attacking/intimidating their targets, ie minorities, the left, labour movement. Offence, I guess begins when you target them away from these type of circumstances.

Is Bakunin's argument simply one of 'pre-emptive defence'?

It looks a bit like that to me too

Do you think that because, subjectively, you think your cause is right that the ends always justify the meens?

No, I think the means should always be ones that strengthen the experience and organisation and solidarity of those that I support - the working classes, minority communities etc

Where are the limits on the violence you would view as 'justified'?

In defending yourself, sadly, there is no limit if the threat you face would wipe you out

 

[gamma globulins]

When faced with a problem I look for practical solutions that will work

.

So the practical solution is to kick the shit out of people on the far right. What benchmark are you setting for acheiving your aims. When will it end?

I'm sure they like to think of themselves as practical people too, after all....

 

[Sasaferrato]

Yes. What could be wrong with mob-mediated physical violence against people who's political views you oppose?

Indeed. You could identify friends by you all wearing the same colour of shirt. Black or brown goes with most things.

 

[tbaldwin]

Cable Street involved 100,000 people - men, women and children - against the BUF as they marched, escorted by Police, through the East End. Completely different situation to tit-for-tat targeting of a far-right leader who is known to resort to violence against his political opponents.

So you would have been against the assasanation of Hitler?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Who is this guy anyway?

 

[TremulousTetra]

So you would have been against the assasanation of Hitler?

unfortunately, yes.

 

[Spion]

All I'm saying is that as soon as you step onto the cycle of violence it becomes increasingly hard to get off it and the level of violence required rises.

I think this is a pacifist myth. Did the Allies continue rolling on and defeating country after country after they defeated Germany in WW2? Did all the guys who had dished out violence during WW2 come back and start being really violent in post-WW2 Britain?

 

[invisibleplanet]

ive actually never heard very much about far right types beating up the leaders of left wing parties

heard of Adolf Hitler?

McFadden, Merseyside TUC

A leading Merseyside trades unionist and anti-racist campaigner has been attacked at his home by a knifeman. Alex McFadden was almost blinded in the attack.
A local reporter takes up the story:

Union boss slashed in face
May 19 2006
EXCLUSIVE by Neil Hodgson, Liverpool Echo

A LEADING trade unionist was slashed in a knife attack in front of his two young daughters in their Merseyside home. Anti-racist campaigner and left wing activist Alec McFadden was almost blinded in the attack, and was cut in his head, arms and wrists as he tried to fend off the knifeman.
His daughters, aged nine and 13, watched in horror as he was slashed with a craft knife, spraying blood on the door and hall of his Wirral home.
The 59-year-old believes racists are behind the attack, as he has received death threats before.
He said: "He missed my eye by half an inch. The doctors say I am lucky."

He was attacked at 9.30pm after hearing banging on his door.
He said: "I saw a man slumped on the garden wall. I thought he was hurt and opened the door.
"He tried to force his way in and slashed me. I shouted to my kids to call the police, and I think when he heard my daughter on the phone saying, 'I want the police now,' it distracted him.

"I got the strength from somewhere and managed to force the door closed."

Earlier, he had been celebrating news his nephew, Everton player James McFadden, had made the Scotland national squad. He said: "I was so elated that I forgot to check my car mirrors and this person must have followed me."
Police were today carrying out forensic testing.

The knifeman was white, 5ft 10ins, with dark receding hair and a local accent. He wore a light coloured top.
Contact Wirral police on 0151 777 2265.
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/breakingnews
/tm_objectid=17103277&method=full&siteid=50061&headline=union-boss-slashed-in-face-name_page.html

Alex McFadden, originally from the North East, is a well-known figure among trade unionists and anti-racist activists, on Merseyside and more widely. Last year I met him at the national trades union councils' conference in Liverpool where he chaired discussions on what trades unionists can do to combat racialism and organise migrant workers. I had a chat with him again a few months ago in the Casa, Merseyside dockers' club on Hope Street.

Racists might not be the only people to make attacks like this, but they are the people who boasted their hatred for Alex McFadden, and it is not the first time he has been their target. Three years ago the notrious right-wing website Redwatch published details on the Merseyside trade unionist including his address and photograph.

http://randompottins.blogspot.com/2006/05/knife-attack-on-merseyside-trade.html

 

[TremulousTetra]

Who is this guy anyway?

he had only one testicle. fact.

Lost it, in the First World War. This led to him having the nickname of "screamer". Says something about the First World War German soldiers sense of humour, doesn't it?

 

[_George]

heard of Adolf Hitler?

i have. but rulers of alot of political persuaions have used violence to repress oposition. that really isnt anything to do with modern british politics

 

[tbaldwin]

What was the name of that fascist, assassinated a couple of years ago, I think he was in Holland. FONTYN or something.

eta
Pim Fortuyn

A good example, on the bankruptcy, of such a strategy.

Hardly.
He was not a fascist for a start.

 

[gamma globulins]

I think this is a pacifist myth. Did the Allies continue rolling on and defeating country after country after they defeated Germany in WW2??

Yes, they beat Japan, and the Soviet Union occupied Eastern Europe.



More seriously the war caused a heavy economic burden. The UK couldn't afford to fight much further, and WWII directly contributed to the breakup of the British Empire. The US along with the USSR and (at the time) to a lesser extent China then began to dominate world affairs. The US still holds sway over a global empire, albeit a primarily economic one, or has that escaped your notice?

 

[_George]

McFadden, Merseyside TUC

http://randompottins.blogspot.com/2006/05/knife-attack-on-merseyside-trade.html

one could actually justify violence against trade unionists using the reasoning in this thread and the fact that trade unions have at times used violence to achieve there aims

 

[DeepStoat]

To explain my stance, I am a smallish female and I am not able or willing to use physical force.

You may as well call me 'a girl' instead of a 'liberal'

You don't need size or testicles to be involved in violent anti-fascisim.

 

[Azrael]

Well, if the fash are prepared to resort to violence (and they are if they can get away with it) what would those who oppose matching them with their own methods propose?

The same thing I'd propose for any violent criminal. Vigorous prosecution followed by prison at hard labour, or a hanging if they've committed murder.

Fascists despise the rule of law. I don't see how abandoning it yourself helps fight them.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Hardly.
He was not a fascist for a start.

I get your point, but I don't think it invalidates the Point I was making. His assassination, certainly encouraged the fascists. In other words, it had to reverse effects to that which was intended, and what bakunin said.

 

[DeepStoat]

Getting bolder eh deepstoat? All being taken for a ride aren't we?

Paranoid?

 

[tbaldwin]

I get your point, but I don't think it invalidates the Point I was making. His assassination, certainly encouraged the fascists. In other words, it had to reverse effects to that which was intended, and what bakunin said.

Do you think the assasanation of Hitler would have encouraged the nazis?

 

[gamma globulins]

Possibly, depending on who stepped into his shoes. Another week of bombing british airfields would have finished us, but the Germans switched to bombing cities, a mistake which might have cost them the war.