Venues with no smoking provisions

[editor]

you got a peerfectly reasoanble answer any chance that you'lll ever stop selectively mis quoting nad delebiertely editing things so that the answer you disagree with is some how missing so you can then claim you have reacieved no answer... very dishonest...

Don't lie please, Garf.

*gives up

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Don't lie please, Garf.

*gives up

apology needed...

you are being dishonest again.

I suggest you look at the post you selectively quoted and then read the whole thing again.

then you can apologise....

I gave a perfectly reasonable answer and it doesn't fit for you to claim that i haven't answer your question when i have done so quite clearly or to claim that you selectively quoting my response which included the answer to your question as basis for then claiming that no response has been given.

If this is the current standard of your debate then i'd suggest you need to do more than give up...

e2a this is the original post seeif you can find the answer in there ...

is it illegal to buy cigerettes then?
has there been a law change that i was previously unwaware of?
has tobacco finally been basnihed to the seedy side of illegality?

no.

Then smokers have the right to buy and consume tabbacco/tobacco based products.

The area and constraints on this not withstanding it's still pefectly legal to buy and consume tobacco products.

If people don't want the taxation the shoring up of the economy, if the goverenment didn't want the extra fiscal revenue then do the decnet thing and ban them entirely.

exc ept when 87% of the cost fo a ciggerette is taxation who's really selling the ciggerettes...

 

[christonabike]

Are you saying that as cigarettes are legal, then venues should provide adequate facilities for smokers, or go face the prospect of going out of business?

This is a reasonable concept, however, I feel they do not have to provide the facilities for smokers if they do not want to and some of these venues will still stay open

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

How can I see that there's 'no big deal' with venues making provision when I'm not sufficiently informed if that's the case, you oversimplistic pillock.

so you don't know what you're talking about but hat doesn't stop you launching in and attacking any POV which chimes against anyone else?

ok...

I know, for example. that Brixton Academy has very little outside space to let punters out to smoke in, hence the queueing restriction. Equally, given security at some of the gigs, it'd be a nonsense to let people in from outside without some kind of additional checks/security in 'fenced' area, adding further time and cost.

which could all be solved with a simple arm band or hand stamp... yes none of this is being disputed...

You also do realise that all punters are treated equally regardless of your bibble- smokers and non-smokers are both entitled to do the same thing (ie not smoke). The fatuous comparison with disability remains bone-headed.[/QUOTE]

are smokers human in your eyes?

are they comparible to other minority groups who have to have situations adapted to suit their needs?

should addicts be marginlaised by society by way of pulbic ostriciseation?

should venues be allowed to discriminate against one seciton of society carring out their legal right (there it is again editor )?

what is the point you are trying to make exactly?

you think that one minority group shoul dhave prefference or prefferential treatment over others.

where is the hirachy written and how does one progress or retard on that scale?


Christ. I'd actually like to see smoking allowed in gigs, but you and your ranting actually has turned me off a little. If your pig ignorant, irrelevant and aggressive approach is anything to go by, then it's no wonder that venues aren't falling over themselves to make smoking areas available.[/QUOTE]

the more discrimination is preverlent the less likely it is that these places will courner that section of the market. the more that smokers who are doing something perfectly legal, within their rights to do, and subsidising all areas of society then they will seek to have a say on how they are treated.

funny that...

And I still think you owe Miss D an apology FWIW.

I don't. hence there being none.

You've got a bloody cheek to talk about ' reintepreting other peoples words and then argueeing against things they have not said?' (Sic) to say the least

then why are you attempting continually to argue against, things i have not siad but which you have rephrased from my posts?

 

[christonabike]

I still have no idea where you stand on this?

All venues should provide adequate facilities for smokers?

Cheers

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Are you saying that as cigarettes are legal, then venues should provide adequate facilities for smokers, or go face the prospect of going out of business?

yes. moreover that they'll simply lose the business of smokers for venues which have such provision. In the city it's happening already those clubs and bars with outdoor smoking areas are florishing those with out or with noticably more draconian smoking policies or no provsion are seeing lower attendances. nearly every club promotoer i have worked with is reporting a down turn in trade which they directly attribute to the smoking ban.

as has previously been said it's probably too early to state whether this is true or not, but that certainly the perception. (equally although for the anti smoking POV this doesn't seem to carry over it's too earlier to state if their are any direct health benifits either)

This is a reasonable concept, however, I feel they do not have to provide the facilities for smokers if they do not want to and some of these venues will still stay open

No they don't have to provide these facilities at all one would hope that market forces would mean that they will however...

 

[tarannau]

Christ, are you still on with this fatuous comparison of smokers with wheelchair users and other minority groups then. This tosh about 'smokers rights' is slipping into the realms of Brass Eye style parody now. More's the pity that you expect people to actually take you seriously.

Yes, purchasing of cigarettes and tobacco is legal, albeit with strict health warnings attached. It doesn't logically follow that smokers should be entitled to smoke where they like or that the Gove should grow some nuts and ban smoking entirely, particularly under the new law and for a whole couple of hours of gig ime. Christ, didn't that sanctimonious, outraged smoker 'rights' approach die out when smoking was banned in cinemas, airplanes and public transport?

It's not a tough concept to understand. But here's Garf, acting like an aggressive toddler that's buried his head into a pharmaceutical sized trough of tartrazine.

 

[no-no]

I miss smoking at gigs, can't even light up a spliff under cover of tobacco smoke anymore. sad,sad times.

 

[free spirit]

ye gods garf, I'm not sure you're helping your arguement here (and I broadly agree with you).

ok here's the smoking news from newcastle... virtually every venue (well in fact every venue I've been to since the smoking ban) has either implemented a pass out system for smokers, or has found a way of incorporating an outdoor smoking area at the back of the venue / on a balcony etc.

For some venue's though I really can see this causing licensing problems if they have nearby housing, as having hoards of smokers outside will cause noise complaints and oculd eventually lead to the venue having it's license revoked. Some venues would already have had restrictions related to noise from people outside imposed prior to the ban, so may have been unable to do passouts for smokers.

IMO unless a venue is targetting a specific audience mostly comprising non-smokers (eg classical music etc) then Garf's right, that venues failing to accomodate smokers are likely to see a drop off in audience numbers, and bands relocating to venues that do accomodate smokers better, which could easily lead to venues closing.

Council run venues are the most likely to suffer from this IME (other than venues with outside noise / pavement blocking problems, due to generally poor management, plus issues with the antismoking lobbies influence within councils & clueless councillors interfering to dictate that they shouldn't be making provision for smokers etc. then wondering why their audience numbers are dropping off, and their beloved venue is facing closure. Councils will often implement across the board no-smoking policies for every building the council owns, that include the grounds of that building, which is a one size fits all policy that doesn't work for entertainment venues- it's largely done to protect the councils corporate image, as they don't want hoards of smokers outside the entrances to their buidlings.

bottom line is that those venues that fail to accomodate smokers will either have to refocus their activities towards types of music that don't attract a large smoking audience, or face a drop in audience numbers and possible closure. There will unfortunately be some venues that are physically unable to make provision for smokers, and some councils that choose to make things more difficult by for example, banning venues from allowing people to smoke outside on the street (which they can do as part of the licensing provision).

 

[tarannau]

Don't worry, every gig I've been to since the ban has had a surreptitious group of smokers toking away. I liked the technique of much of the Happy Mondays crowd - a knees bent step-shuffle with head down, helping to take them underneath the level of the main crowd and hide themselves. I was happy to join them for a spliff or three during the gig

 

[pinkmonkey]

Depends on the gig doesn't it? They had a limited size smoking area for the Happy Mondays. but the queue built up very quickly indeed. As soon as the gig kicked off more than a few resorted to sneaky smokes, followed by more bold behaviour later on.

Not looking forward to my first reggae gig under the new laws. What's going to happen to the banter with the crowd imploring them to spark up eh?

Shout out for everyone to apply their nicorette patches possibly? Doesn't sound right, does it?

 

[free spirit]

Don't worry, every gig I've been to since the ban has had a surreptitious group of smokers toking away. I liked the technique of much of the Happy Mondays crowd - a knees bent step-shuffle with head down, helping to take them underneath the level of the main crowd and hide themselves. I was happy to join them for a spliff or three during the gig

ay, then you've got the glade festival tactic of getting everyone onsite then flooding the surrounding area for the period of the festival so no council officials can get onto site to whine about someone smoking in a fucking huge marquee.

 

[tarannau]

Yep. Light up your nicorette's never going to work as well is it?

 

[zenie]

Depends on the gig doesn't it? They had a limited size smoking area for the Happy Mondays. but the queue built up very quickly indeed. to spark up eh?

Where's the smoking area at the academy?

I've been pissed off that I can't go out for a fag in the intermission/changing over bit at gigs. People seem to be smoking in the toilets but I dunno what staff would do if they cuaight them?

I've almost stopped going to pubs and legal nights because going outside for a fag is tedious. It's not so bad when you can get a hand stamp or a wrostband though.

Gigs just aren't as good shit when you can't go for a fag/spliff

 

[tarannau]

It's just on the right hand side when you go past the second main doors - by the middle of the gig the queue was stretching right up onto the top of the right hand staircase. From what I can gather it's a little stretch of the outside alleyway cordoned off. Which is perhaps why they're not keen to let too many people out - space and security considerations are fairly pressing.

I've just lit up inside the Academy when needed FWIW, in a subtle fashion of course.

 

[mr steev]

... venues failing to accomodate smokers are likely to see a drop off in audience numbers, and bands relocating to venues that do accomodate smokers better, which could easily lead to venues closing.

Council run venues are the most likely to suffer from this IME (other than venues with outside noise / pavement blocking problems, due to generally poor management, plus issues with the antismoking lobbies influence within councils & clueless councillors interfering to dictate that they shouldn't be making provision for smokers etc. then wondering why their audience numbers are dropping off, and their beloved venue is facing closure.

Here in Wolverhampton it seems like the council have systematically closed down most venues/large clubs after the town was granted city status and a 'thriving nightlife' was not seen to be important anymore... funny how they kept going on about the number of clubs and nights going on pre-milenium and yet now they'll use compulsory purchase orders to knock venues down and replace them with another fucking supermarket!

And as for bands using other venues, sadly I can see that happening. Particularly with smaller bands. But unfortunately for me, the option won't be another venue in this town... another in the Midlands if I'm lucky

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

<more off topic ad homine nonsense rephraseing others arguments into straw men bollocks>

still not got it yet... have you...

 

[tarannau]

Course I have Garf. You're an numbnut who can't communicate properly and that nobody can be arsed to take seriously.

That's about the size of it, but feel free not to confound my expectations with more of your ranty, illogical rolleye stuff.

 

[mr steev]

Maybe the civic will implement the fingertip scanning system that we are using for the darts, to be honest though, I hope not, it just seemed problematic.

So they can let people out, they just don't. Nice.

Fingerprinting is a little OTT innit! What's wrong with a stamp and retain your ticket stub? That's been used sucessfully for years... in fact the Civic did it when they held the beer festivals, and the Little Civic next door (ran by the same people) do it all the time.

 

[free spirit]

So they can let people out, they just don't. Nice.

Fingerprinting is a little OTT innit! What's wrong with a stamp and retain your ticket stub? That's been used sucessfully for years... in fact the Civic did it when they held the beer festivals, and the Little Civic next door (ran by the same people) do it all the time.

the only logical reason I could see would be the arguements that if it was a big bands audience there'd be too many people outside blocking the pavement etc at one time in the interval between the bands.

It's a bit different for club nights, where there's no interval as such, so you just have a steady flow of people not everyone going for a fag at once.

with most places there should be a way to manage it though

 

[mr steev]

the only logical reason I could see would be the arguements that if it was a big bands audience there'd be too many people outside blocking the pavement etc at one time in the interval between the bands.

I had heard this about the Civic, but there's a massive paved area on the front. And surely it would be no worse than people queing to get in anyway?

 

[mr steev]

dp

 

[free spirit]

I had heard this about the Civic, but there's a massive paved area on the front. And surely it would be no worse than people queing to get in anyway?

dunno, depends on the venue, usually if the venue owner wants to make smoking provision happen a way to do it can be found, councils tend to not want to have large groups of people smoking outside their buildings to protect their corporate image, and avoid sending 'the wrong message', so will come up with excuses as to why they can't do it.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Course I have Garf. You're an numbnut who can't communicate properly and that nobody can be arsed to take seriously.

That's about the size of it, but feel free not to confound my expectations with more of your ranty, illogical rolleye stuff.

still attackling the topic of debate and not poster though right. good for you...

 

[skyscraper101]

Seems like the Roundhouse were wise to this crack when they opened last year. I like their little outside bit which you can smoke in, and I don't even smoke.

Perhaps they should start selling niccotine gum inside venues?

 

[kittyP]

Shambala 2008 will be on Bank Holiday Weekend (22-25 August).

Easily accessible from all parts of the country, the site is just 5 miles south of Market Harborough and 11 miles north of Northampton on the Leicestershire /Northamptonshire border. Get to Junction 1 on the A14 and follow the Shambala Sun Signs to the site.

Tickets are here - http://shambalafestival.org/tickets/