Venezuelan Regional Elections

[Jeff Robinson]

Why would it be necessary to consolidate power in order to mobilize new forms of politics? Why is a failure to grab more power seen as withdrawal? What are the specific forces that are getting in the way of new politics? Will turning 24 parties into one actually do anything to tackle those forces?

History seems to have plenty of examples of people seizing vast amounts of power so that they can redistribute it fairly, but the latter usually fails to happen. No matter how much power and control is obtained, opposing forces working against the cause remain, giving justification to hang onto power, and over time this power corrupts. Few are immune to the great doublethink of democracy, that you want to give power to the people but only once the people have been taught to do the right thing with the power, and attempts to teach them are where it gets ugly.

Oh come elbows - power isn't just control over the executive or some abstract notion divorsed from social relationships. Do multinational corporations have power in Venezuela? Do the domestic ruling class who control most of the media not pocess power? Is the influence of US imperialism not another source of power?

Leftists shouldn't fall for the old "big government bad" arguements of the Hayekites - what matters is not the size of government but its character - how accountable is it, who's interests does it represents etc

The voluntary merging of political parties to form a united front to resist the various sources of social, political and economic power like yankee imperialism, multinational corporations and the domestic elites is sometime that progressives should welcome - the mobalisation of democratic political power to resist the unaccountable tyranny of the free market.

 

[hipipol]

yep tyrannies should always be accountable
We need some fucker to blame after its all been ruined!!

 

[elbows]

Well I havent complained when Chavez tried to take power away from undemocratic groups. I was happy when the coup against him went wrong, and some of the detail was glorious - the coup plotters gloating on television about how they did it, the new regime slapping themselves on the back and getting rid of some of Chavez's laws, only to have it all come undone due to people power. Where briefly there was an undemocratic powergrabber puffed up in a nice white uniform, relishing his new role, the next moment there was just a uniform on the floor, its wearer having scarpered. Subsequently, it was amusing to see the US try to paint Venezuela as undemocratic, despite rather a large number of votes having taken place there this century.

And yes there are a huge number of scenario's where I think big government has a vital role to play, Im just wary of what actually happens when power is concentrated, there are so many things that can push the movement in the wrong direction.

Maybe it is necessary for some groups to merge in order to counter opposing forces, but I need some detail to be sure, even if Chavez is going in the right direction I would want to scrutinizing such things closely. If there are specific problems, barriers to reform or scary opponents with a stranglehold somewhere, that such measures are designed to overcome, then Id like to know the detail. Its certainly possible for organisations to form a common front without having to merge completely, and as consolidation of power sounds like the opposite of democracy, I am cautious.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I once sang outside of what was then Rhodesia House in praise of Comrade Mugabe
How wrong could you be?

"Oh what a goodly aspect falsehood hath"

Nuff said really
Oh yeah the cholera epidemic now gathering pace in Zim is apparently, the fault of the West

Sorry, your random comparisons – Peron, then the Gang of Four and now Mugabe – are really not illuminating.

 

[DownwardDog]

As you'll see, prices still need to drop considerably further to get back down to where they were in 2002. Venezuela will indeed be affected by the fall in prices, but oil revenues will not drop below where they were six years ago. There will still be oil money for Chavez to spend for the foreseeable future.

But under HC's tender care PdVSA has neglected exploration, recovery and maintenance so the Venezuelan oil industry is in a much poorer clip than 2002 and not well placed to weather a drop in prices. He's also chased out quite a few engineering and management professionals out (I've met a few of them who have relocated to the Middle East) replacing them with military officers with relatively little oil experience.

 

[hipipol]

Are you stupid little messaihtwat?
Its all starts with smiles and big hopes, BUT these charismatic me, me, me types nearly all end in tears
peron, loved, thought to be good by the ppeps, he fucked em
same for mao, in his dottage his mad wife and her mates took over
Mugabe - read the papers I'm sure you can see it aint all wine and roses

Its the same point I have made all the way thru
Whats different?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Are you stupid little messaihtwat?
Its all starts with smiles and big hopes, BUT these charismatic me, me, me types nearly all end in tears
peron, loved, thought to be good by the ppeps, he fucked em
same for mao, in his dottage his mad wife and her mates took over
Mugabe - read the papers I'm sure you can see it aint all wine and roses

Its the same point I have made all the way thru
Whats different?

You haven't mentioned Hitler yet.

A group of more than 130 international election observers praised the organization, fairness, and efficiency of last Sunday's regional and local elections in Venezuela, and also gave constructive suggestions for how to reduce lines at polling booths in the future.

The National Electoral Council of Venezuela (CNE) "has achieved credibility, efficient and transparent processes, and as a consequence of this, Venezuela has new legitimate authorities," said Joaquin Vives, an observer from Colombia's CNE, during a press conference Monday evening.

zig heil! zig heil!

 

[hipipol]

No, because Hitler got hiis power to start with, in a rather different way - top down really, the ohters rose from beow, then began their centralising tendencies

Robspierre or Lenin (had he lived) are prob closer than the one baled Austrian

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I love you hipipol (I don't know why though)

 

[hipipol]

You gotta admit mate, they dont look very stable do they?

As for Madam Mao and cohorts, pics in the doc , well you never look at yer best there eh?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Stalin on where the Venezuelan revolution should go after the regional elections:

http://links.org.au/node/765

I'm not kidding.

 

[hipipol]

From a minute there I though you meant the Comrade Stalin of the War Veterans and a noted Mugabe henchman, but then I realised he was as dead as the original!!!!
Ah, but it seems it has become a well popular name all over the globe -bit like Winston or Ghengis were in previous eras!!

"It is necessary to open a profound debate within the party [United Socialist Party of Venezuela – PSUV], to reflect and proceed with self-criticism," - well that shoudl keep em busy for next couple of decades I'm sure

When I was a kid we sometimes found the bodies on the beach - I grew in Hong Kong during the Cultural Revolution - these were peeps who had been found wanting in some Maosit "self-criticism" exercise - its made me very wary of the cult of personality and way that a lot of so called revolutionary movements seem to be useful vehicles for some very nasty peices of work to gain power - not neccesarily the leaders, who be motivated by the best of ideals, but those at the lower levels who see opportunity to settle scores and basically terrorise others
Suspect that this particular Stalin however will spend years talking and not so many shooting - a much better balance

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Stalin is not an entirely unknown name in Venezuela for people of his generation. After the second world war there was strong anti-fascist sentiment in Latin America and many parents named their children after the allied leaders. Apparently Stalin Perez Borges has two brothers called Churchill and Roosevelt! The ultimate irony is that the guy's a Trotskyist

 

[Streathamite]

Up yer arse Cockwipe

If they all spend this new found wedge on weapons, well I dont see that as an improvement

they haven't mostly; it's on social, education, welfare and redistribution programmes

 

[Streathamite]

Suspect that this particular Stalin however will spend years talking and not so many shooting - a much better balance

EH? sdince when did Stalin submit to, and accept the results of that many elections? a more democratic Castro is closer to it.

 

[hipipol]

EH? sdince when did Stalin submit to, and accept the results of that many elections? a more democratic Castro is closer to it.

Wrong Stalin idiot
Read JFs link in the post three before your first post
That was Stalin I was refering to
Equally in response to your first post, read what went before, otherwise, refrain from ill advised jumping in
The reference to weapons was directly to the murder rate, the weapons are being purchased by individuals NOT the State