Venezuelan referendum: 'Chávez wins'

[nino_savatte]

Are the opposition any better?

 

[kyser_soze]

Just a question: is the opposition any better?

No, and that's the main problem - there is no genuine wide based opposition to Chavez at the moment, the country is split between Chavistas and the old spanish élite with not much inbetween...will be interesting to see what happens now he's lost tho, since he's made a lot of people in his party pissed off, expelled many etc.

 

[Skimix]

It's ok to change the constitution full stop!

I'm sure that every consitution that's ever been written has been amended at some point or other - why should the Venezualan one be any different?

I wasn't questionning whether it was ok to change the constitution but the implication that it made a difference what ones politics were. Either its ok for everyone or its not.

It will be interesting to see what Chavez does now he's lost the vote. I've he leaves it I'll have a lot more respect for him than for Putin who is sticking to the letter but not the spirit of the constitution.

And comparisons between Mugabe and Chavez are plainly ridiculous.

 

[Skimix]

Are the opposition any better?

Who am I (or you) to judge that?

And well done for your enlightening response to my earlier post.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I know what you're saying, but to put chavez and mugabe in the same breath is a terrible sin!! At least over half of venezuelans like the man, and that simply cannot be said about zimbabweans over mugabe.

What I meant to say - and it looks like I did - is that Mugabe is not the only faux socialist revolutionary turned keptocrat out there. Post colonial Africa is littered with them. Yeah agree that more Venezuelan's like Chavez than Zims like Mugabe.

 

[CyberRose]

Who am I (or you) to judge that?

And well done for your enlightening response to my earlier post.

What?! Every post on these politics forums are somebody or another giving their take on various issues, why can we not have that pleasure when discussing the Venezuelan opposition? IMO, they are the real ones who are stifling democracy in Venezuela in a number of ways, namely their control over the popular media and their refusal to take part in the democratic process (which is where the international media get their accusations that Chavez is a dictator from because he has total control over the Parliament - not because he "siezed" power, but because the opposition refused to take part in those elections) - and that's not even taking into account their failed coup attempt!

 

[CyberRose]

Spot on. Although I'm in favour of Chavez he does himself no favours by accusing dissenters of being traitors and purging his party of anyone other than yes men. If Chavez goes bad and sinks into meglomania there are plenty of other examples apart from Mugabe to compare him with sadly.

If you're trying to say that we should be cautious over Chavez due to experiences elsewhere of "similar" leaders, then fair enough, but where should that caution end? So far, Chavez has been about as democratic as they come...

 

[nino_savatte]

Who am I (or you) to judge that?

And well done for your enlightening response to my earlier post.

Well, I can make a judgement based upon the evidence that I've seen and i can honestly say, without reservation, that the opposition is composed of, what kyser describes as, the old Spanish elite; the oligarchs. These were the same people who made good use of digital video editing techniques to sell the story of how they came under fire from Chavez supporters. It was a lie. It seems that you have less of a grip on Venezuelan affairs than you think you do.

As far as your posts are concerned, you have no room for comment and based on this response, I'd say that they're all anile.

 

[lostexpectation]

erm the media says it was a no can we believe them?

 

[kyser_soze]

Well Chavez has already conceded defeat, so maybe you want to take it up with him?

 

[Skimix]

It seems that you have less of a grip on Venezuelan affairs than you think you do.

I never pretended to be an expert, thats why I said who am I to judge!

Anyway, back on topic. I think its unfair to lump the entire opposition in with the old style spanish elite. The BBC etc are reporting that much of the opposition was led by student groups, I might be wrong (as I said, I'm not an expert) but presumably they aren't part of the formal opposition?

As an aside, was the referendum all or nothing? There were umpteen changes to the constitution, did they have to approve all/none of them or could you approve the proposals individually?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

The BBC etc are reporting that much of the opposition was led by student groups, I might be wrong (as I said, I'm not an expert) but presumably they aren't part of the formal opposition?

Ah, why would you say so?

 

[CyberRose]

The BBC etc are reporting that much of the opposition was led by student groups

Heh, even in this country students tend to be amongst the more wealthier members of society, in Venezuela I should imagine that would be to an even greater extent...

 

[mk12]

Quite likely why he lost.

It would be interesting to see the results of a referendum without that proposal (issue of the length of presidential term).

 

[nino_savatte]

I never pretended to be an expert, thats why I said who am I to judge!

Anyway, back on topic. I think its unfair to lump the entire opposition in with the old style spanish elite. The BBC etc are reporting that much of the opposition was led by student groups, I might be wrong (as I said, I'm not an expert) but presumably they aren't part of the formal opposition?

As an aside, was the referendum all or nothing? There were umpteen changes to the constitution, did they have to approve all/none of them or could you approve the proposals individually?

I think you're displaying a remarkable degree of naivete if you think that opposition aren't anything other than the old Spanish elite.

Funny how you ignored my point about them using digital editing to lie to the world.

 

[ska invita]

Good. If it was Putin trying to change the constitution to get a third term, most people on here would be up in arms.

Chavez is a hugely democratic leader - he had every right to propose this change in the constitution. The public got out on the streets and put on a good campaing (for and against). Putin is clearly not so democratic.

Chavez lost. Good. It's good for democracy, and ultimately it's okay for Chavez - if he takes it like a man, and reiterates that he is the most democratic leader Venezuela has ever had - which he is.

Supposedly 21st century socialism is about empowering the people - well the people have spoken, so this is a good lesson for the people, and a good test of character for the state.

If his revolution is so successful surely it won't be dependent on a single figure, and plenty of other people will be wanting to continue it.

Well, you'd have thought so, but he is a succesful leader, and its funny how much difference a weak leader can make. There are plenty of forces just waiting to crash the whole party - never mind attempt another coup.

Chavez has proved himself capable of the job - and its a tough job. I wouldnt have had a problem with him remaining in power for longer if people wanted to vote him in. HOpefully by 2012 (I think thats how long hes got) he'll have created enough stablility for a smooth enough transition.

Transitions are never easy though.