Utility Bills - sky high price hike

[lewislewis]

It would cost £11bn to nationalise Centrica, £16bn for Powergen, etc. Where is this money coming from? Borrowing and taxes are the only sources of income the government has so which would it be?

£11bn isn't that much. The St. Athan/Metrix military academy if it goes ahead will cost £14bn of taxpayers money. Trident will cost something similar. The Olympics is billions too. The govt spends billions on defence & war. The money exists even on a low tax base. It is just a case of priorities. Nationalising/renationalising everything would lead to an economic collapse but on a step-by-step basis would be an option.

 

[brasicritique]

the reason why they should be renationalised is quite obvious as a lot of possters have argued

what i would say is all this WTO do they think china and other countries are going to privitise there energy companies?

The energy crisis is only going to get worse prices are going to keep going up and up and up energy is running out and not one policitcan has the ability to be able to offer any solutions -and the arguments about using less would be all well and good but idiotic energy rationing is all well and good if everyone does it on a massive scale but just taking energy from the most vulnerable and poorest wont work in the long run is the houses of parliamnet eniromentally friendly or all the queens palaces? sooner or later someone will have to renationalise energy as a lesser of two evils -

 

[DownwardDog]

The energy crisis is only going to get worse prices are going to keep going up and up and up energy is running out and not one policitcan has the ability to be able to offer any solutions

So why would we want to put politicians in charge of the energy companies? They would be unable to resist the political temptation to keep energy prices artificially low which would mean our new "British Energy" company would cut long term investment in infrastructure and efficiency measures.

£11bn isn't that much. The St. Athan/Metrix military academy if it goes ahead will cost £14bn of taxpayers money. Trident will cost something similar. The Olympics is billions too. The govt spends billions on defence & war. The money exists even on a low tax base. It is just a case of priorities. Nationalising/renationalising everything would lead to an economic collapse but on a step-by-step basis would be an option.

I'm all for scrapping massive statist projects that are made of fail like Trident, aircraft carriers, ID cards, Olympics, etc. But if you're going to do that then you might as well just use the money to cut taxes for the low paid, increase pensions etc. Then you could still have a competitive market for domestic energy supply, less energy poverty and a retain a functional equities market. Unless of course you want (re)nationalisation on ideological principle, which is fair enough.

 

[Dravinian]

So why would we want to put politicians in charge of the energy companies? They would be unable to resist the political temptation to keep energy prices artificially low which would mean our new "British Energy" company would cut long term investment in infrastructure and efficiency measures.

There is no evidence for this and I gave good evidence why the contrary is true.

Government can borrow at a far lower rate then the private sector, hence they can borrow more by paying back the same amount. You also have a single large company capable of handling capital projects, such as the billions of pounds required for nuclear power.

I'm all for scrapping massive statist projects that are made of fail like Trident, aircraft carriers, ID cards, Olympics, etc. But if you're going to do that then you might as well just use the money to cut taxes for the low paid, increase pensions etc. Then you could still have a competitive market for domestic energy supply, less energy poverty and a retain a functional equities market. Unless of course you want (re)nationalisation on ideological principle, which is fair enough.

As I said I don't believe it will cost that much to renationalise those industries as long as you did it in the right way. Then you could close all those statist projects, cut taxes for the low paid and still have a nationalised utilities industry whose first duty was to customer care not to shareholders.

 

[Dravinian]

You also talk about a competitive market like this is something we would wish to retain, when really, it isn't that competitive at all, there are only like 7 or so companies involved and each one of them follows the other as they raise and lower prices.

You also ignore the fact that competition is worthless to some people as they are in debt to their suppliers, so don't really think about moving company, others are on a Key meter which is not a service all companies provide in all areas.

Much like the Telecommunications service the competition that exists is very small, slightly better then the Water, but not much. We have some competition now, but you try getting a phone without BT or cable, still ain't easy even in London.

Competition in an essential market place that requires a certain level of company to be effective is pointless.

 

[DownwardDog]

You also talk about a competitive market like this is something we would wish to retain, when really, it isn't that competitive at all, there are only like 7 or so companies involved and each one of them follows the other as they raise and lower prices.

I'm not sure that's really the case. When I did an online comparison for my mother's house she had a choice of 14 suppliers for gas (most expensive: £792, cheapest: £530) and 15 suppliers for electricity (most expensive: £710, cheapest: £325). So there is a market operating albeit of partial efficacy and suffering from issues of cognitive complexity.

 

[audiotech]

I'm not sure that's really the case. When I did an online comparison for my mother's house she had a choice of 14 suppliers for gas (most expensive: £792, cheapest: £530) and 15 suppliers for electricity (most expensive: £710, cheapest: £325). So there is a market operating albeit of partial efficacy and suffering from issues of cognitive complexity.

A con in other words.

 

[shagnasty]

not many governments default on loans because borrowers know that they will pratically always get their money even if it means the people of said countries starving to death. look at the loans to third world countries.capatialism at its very best

 

[brasicritique]

So why would we want to put politicians in charge of the energy companies?

no your so right lets put unelected unaccountable multimillionare buisnessmen in charge of enviromental and energy policy seeing as how they are doing such a great job by funding anti climate change lobbyists

They would be unable to resist the political temptation to keep energy prices artificially low which would mean our new "British Energy" company would cut long term investment in infrastructure and efficiency measures..

No thats a very poor argumenet based on speculation and the last part is laughable tbh and lacking reference to what will be an increasing problem for everyone apart from the very rich

why would they cut investment in new infrastructure in the context of renationalisation which i am suggesting they should do in the short term as part of a massive revision of energy policy/stratergy

I'm all for scrapping massive statist projects that are made of fail like Trident, aircraft carriers, ID cards, Olympics, etc. But if you're going to do that then you might as well just use the money to cut taxes for the low paid, increase pensions etc. Then you could still have a competitive market for domestic energy supply, less energy poverty and a retain a functional equities market. Unless of course you want (re)nationalisation on ideological principle, which is fair enough.

No your wrong and base this on yet more speculation none of these schemes are going to be scrapped in any case the uk has a retrogressive taxation policy form the TV licence to water meters
the poor pay more tax than billionares

FACT prices are going to keep going up
FACT energy infrastructue decrept and on its last legs
FACT as the green moevement curently stands its based on market principles hence its exclusivity and lack of working class voter base which is why it will never be more than a bunch crunchy consevrtives
FACT uk economy at the start of what looks like stagflation


if you dont want to see re-nationalisation on the basis of ideological principle then fair enough lo if this is not the case then maybe youve been in downward dog to long and had a troll headrush

lo if your an american then that would explain it

 

[DownwardDog]

A con in other words.

I don't know if it's a con. Even if you're stupid enough to pick the most expensive or too lazy to do your homework they're not lying about what it will cost and you don't have to use them.

 

[brasicritique]

well we all know who voted for the free market option

 

[DownwardDog]

if you dont want to see re-nationalisation on the basis of ideological principle then fair enough lo if this is not the case then maybe youve been in downward dog to long and had a troll headrush

lo if your an american then that would explain it

I don't mind if they nationalise it or not. I don't live in the UK and probably never will again. I was just interested in discussing the issues around it. I should have known that any significant deviation from the U75 P&P orthodoxy would have resulted in the T word being giving an airing.

FACT: The personal abuse and crude characterisation on the basis of nationality detracts from an otherwise interesting post.

 

[brasicritique]

I don't mind if they nationalise it or not. I don't live in the UK and probably never will again. I was just interested in discussing the issues around it. I should have known that any significant deviation from the U75 P&P orthodoxy would have resulted in the T word being giving an airing.

FACT: The personal abuse and crude characterisation on the basis of nationality detracts from an otherwise interesting post.

FACT you dont live in the UK FACT this is very serious issue hence peoples reactions FACT maybe thats why in this instance your wrong
no Urban Othodoxy from me come on give us a smile

 

[Dravinian]

I don't know if it's a con. Even if you're stupid enough to pick the most expensive or too lazy to do your homework they're not lying about what it will cost and you don't have to use them.

Ever wonder if particular companies price themselves out of particular markets.

Ever wonder how much competition those people have?

I mean, why deal with the poor, with their key cards and Paypoint systems, and their cash payments, no direct debits, standing orders and only a rare visa card payment, with their defaulting and always paying late and behind.

Why deal with all that when you can simply up your price a little. Offer a large discount for Direct Debit for instance, to offset the cost to the wealthy, but to keep the riff raff out.

Your claim of competition would be laughable if it wasn't so fucking obscene. Not you mind, the Government and the system they allow, you are just a free marketeer you can't help but defend this shit, but you are not responsible for it.

 

[kyser_soze]

Fuck me, even if the utilities were nationalised, they'd still be paying - and charging - market rates for their oil, gas and gas. The only difference is they there would be one supplier, one billing address and one place to go to actually buy the stuff, and it would be administered and overseen by the civil service.

Windfall tax every single penny the fuckers are making out of this - it's been done before, it's not illegal under WTO rules and it'll be popular. But why would anyone want to expand the scope of government into our lives? FFS - can you imagine the privacy implications? HMG would have direct access to data on your energy consumption, and given the propensity for this government to meddle as much as it can, to 'do the righth thing' does anyone NOT think that would involve getting sent stern letters, followed by punitive charges about wasteful use of electricity? At the very least you'd see compulsory watermetering to satisfy calls for accountability, as well as calls from the greens to ensure everyone remained good little consumers of energy who didn't waste a single watt, cubic metre or millilitre of anything.

Fucks sake *shakes head*

 

[Blagsta]

Fuck me, even if the utilities were nationalised, they'd still be paying - and charging - market rates for their oil, gas and gas. The only difference is they there would be one supplier, one billing address and one place to go to actually buy the stuff, and it would be administered and overseen by the civil service.

Oh, and no shareholders wanting their cut.

 

[CyberRose]

I think it would cost too much to nationalise them. But a windfall tax would be very good.

I did vote for renationalisation but having read the arguments for the windfall tax I think that's a pretty good down-the-middle option, it's also a realistic option that would get the government a lot of support (depending on what the windfall tax was spent on of course!)

I also think wholesale state ownership of the energy sector would require a development of our relationship to the EU as current legislation would not permit the creation of state owned monopolies.

As Alan Partridge said, "See you in Strasbourg!"

I'm not sure what the rules are for electricity as there is a specific directive 'encouraging' the opening of markets (can't see whether this is compulsory or not). I think renationalising the electricity market, altho wouldn't be popular with the Commissioners, would fall in line with the EU's competition principles as long as all the electricity companies were nationalised into one company. If, say, only one nationalised company was created, with the remainder all still competing with it, then that wouldn't be allowed

£11bn isn't that much. The St. Athan/Metrix military academy if it goes ahead will cost £14bn of taxpayers money. Trident will cost something similar. The Olympics is billions too. The govt spends billions on defence & war. The money exists even on a low tax base. It is just a case of priorities. Nationalising/renationalising everything would lead to an economic collapse but on a step-by-step basis would be an option.

Well if we take £12bn as an average buy-out price for the six major suppliers then that would be around the £70bn mark, including all the smaller suppliers we could be pushing around £100bn? That's nearly 1/5 of the entire UK budget and I don't think that money would easily found. What you mention above that we could cut back on doesn't add up to anywhere near the kind of money needed to nationalise the energy companies (St Athan won't cost £14bn of taxpayers money, and what it will cost might already be factored into the defence budget, and Trident will cost what? Just over half a billion a year so could easily be factored into the defence budget) As you've demonstrated, it's not easy to just pluck billions of pounds out of thin air and less easy to decide on what to cut back on...

 

[DownwardDog]

I'm not sure what the rules are for electricity as there is a specific directive 'encouraging' the opening of markets (can't see whether this is compulsory or not). I think renationalising the electricity market, altho wouldn't be popular with the Commissioners, would fall in line with the EU's competition principles as long as all the electricity companies were nationalised into one company. If, say, only one nationalised company was created, with the remainder all still competing with it, then that wouldn't be allowed

Interesting point. I'm not sure that it would be possible to create the single monolithic supplier as foreign companies like EDF already have access to the British domestic market. We're not going to be nationalising that unless we want to get into a standoff using Trident (which we may have got rid of to pay for it) with the French.

The government don't seem to be effective or ethical managers of anything so I'm not sure why there appears to be a presumptive bias that the hypothetical "British Energy" organisation will be a wellspring of efficiency and compassion.

Depending on how adverse the wholesale energy market gets in the coming years I still feel it could happen notwithstanding the difficulties. However, the brand of "nationalisation" is hopelessly toxic as it reminds people of men with bugger grip sideboards trying not to let their nylon flares get too close to improvised braziers. The government's recent adventures in this area will have done nothing to improve public perception as the tax payer has had to shovel another £3bn into the Northern Rock inferno this week.

So they need a new name for it. I propose "Socially Directed Enterprise".

 

[audiotech]

I don't know if it's a con. Even if you're stupid enough to pick the most expensive or too lazy to do your homework they're not lying about what it will cost and you don't have to use them.

Npower representatives were found out lying through their teeth.

 

[brasicritique]

well the closet fabians have made a great fucking case for windfall tax yip fucking eee i give downward dog there credit at least they beleive in a free markets system and voted so as opposed to the the flip floping inaness of some of the posters on this thread fucking windfall tax all you who voted for windfall tax seeing as how you are really obviouslly feeling the pinch perhaps you can explain to me

1 at what point fuel bills ever going to stop going up?
2 how the governments muted ideas of a windfall tax if implemented is going to go anywhere near to helpin the vast amounts of people ever risin genergy prices are going to effect as it goes on in a wider context
windfall tax = heres 10p of your energy bill you mugs you havent even got the courage to vote with downward dog

 

[CyberRose]

well the closet fabians have made a great fucking case for windfall tax yip fucking eee i give downward dog there credit at least they beleive in a free markets system and voted so as opposed to the the flip floping inaness of some of the posters on this thread fucking windfall tax all you who voted for windfall tax seeing as how you are really obviouslly feeling the pinch perhaps you can explain to me

1 at what point fuel bills ever going to stop going up?
2 how the governments muted ideas of a windfall tax if implemented is going to go anywhere near to helpin the vast amounts of people ever risin genergy prices are going to effect as it goes on in a wider context
windfall tax = heres 10p of your energy bill you mugs you havent even got the courage to vote with downward dog

Is this supposed to be a convincing argument?

 

[brasicritique]

No you have already made your mind up have you not? i think democracy and the fact 50+ voters versus 1 neo con a dozen flip flops means no arguement is needed i will let the fact prices are goingto keep going up and up and up while the economy and energy supply are going down do the argueing as they are FACTS which no amount of limp footed flip flopping arguemtns can stand against

 

[CyberRose]

No you have already made your mind up have you not? i think democracy and the fact 50+ voters versus 1 neo con a dozen flip flops means no arguement is needed i will let the fact prices are goingto keep going up and up and up while the economy and energy supply are going down do the argueing as they are FACTS which no amount of limp footed flip flopping arguemtns can stand against

One, I doubt you even know what a neocon even is; two, the price of oil will continue to rise whether the industry is nationalised or not; three, if you're trying to convince anyone of your point of view, I suggest you quit the aggressiveness

 

[brasicritique]

yeh your so right i dont even know what a neo con is i suggest you go away add a dash of empathy read a few intellectual books not reviewed in the broadsheets such as those on the urban readng list you probably think an I.S.A is a savings account run along now theres a good little fabian

 

[CyberRose]

yeh your so right i dont even know what a neo con is i suggest you go away add a dash of empathy read a few intellectual books not reviewed in the broadsheets such as those on the urban readng list you probably think an I.S.A is a savings account run along now theres a good little fabian

How do you know I've not done any research on neocons?

Anyway, it's a perfectly resonable conclusion to come to that you don't know what neocons are when you consider someone who casts doubts on renationalisation as a neocon...

 

[Gromit]

Neo con?

Isn't it THE convention for neo nazis? The one they look forward to all year.

Neo con 07 was a blast I hear.