Using someones unsecured network. Ethical?

[untethered]

In my day-to-day business, I am entitled to assume I'm dealing with competent adults and their agents; that's why there are some situations in which it is unethical to be clueless.

Isn't this a poor assumption when dealing with networks operated by many home users and small businesses? Isn't it your responsibilty to realise that and act accordingly?

I suggest that regarding this particular blind spot, the cluelessness is yours. Securing a network and having evidence that the network is secure isn't as simple as locking one's door and observing it to be soundly shut.

 

[Jonti]

Who sold them this stuff, eh?

Attitudes like yours are everything that's wrong with the IT world. Make things insecure by default and blame the users when something goes wrong.

Why not wag your finger in the right direction?

You morality police are strangely selective in those you target for a slagging off

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh ffs. It's a small thing you're doing. The benefit to you is significant. The chance of it harming anyone else is very small. If it does harm someone else, it will only be a very small harm.

Perspective?

I think some of you have too much bloody perspective.

 

[stupid dogbot]

I sort of see both sides of this one, to be honest. I understand where you're coming from Jonti, but at the same time, I think that those of us who are technical can help people to understand the potential implications of things like router security.

 

[untethered]

Perspective?

It's the principle. If it's not yours you don't just help yourself, no matter how minor the impact is likely to be.

This thread is a very telling example of how badly brought up many people are, which explains much about the world more generally.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's the principle. If it's not yours you don't just help yourself, no matter how minor the impact is likely to be.

This thread is a very telling example of how badly brought up many people are, which explains much about the world more generally.

Oh fuck off, you sanctimonious arse.

 

[Jonti]

I sort of see both sides of this one, to be honest. I understand where you're coming from Jonti, but at the same time, I think that those of us who are technical can help people to understand the potential implications of things like router security.

Absolutely; it's really only a matter of bookmarking a webpage and knowing how to fill in a form

 

[AKA pseudonym]

i leave mine open.. i kinda know if someone needs to access the facilities it prob is temp...it wouldnt be hard to find out if someone is extrating the urine...


property is theft..
virtual property is wot?

 

[grit]

In my day-to-day business, I am entitled to assume I'm dealing with competent adults and their agents; that's why there are some situations in which it is unethical to be clueless.

I had that assumption when I was about 16/17 the real world quickly beat it out of me after that though

 

[jæd]

There's still a lot of consumers (and people in small businesses who don't have access to an IT person) who expect stuff to Just Work. If they turn a wireless access point on and manage to get the Internet working for them that's all they care about.

The good thing is that now some AP's come with WEP on by default. Hopefully it will WPA soon.

If you expect everyone to be 100 % clued up on what they are doing (or even 50%), you're just asking for it IMO.

 

[spudulike]

In my day-to-day business, I am entitled to assume I'm dealing with competent adults and their agents

If that was true, very few people would know what RTFM stood for.

 

[editor]

The fact that you find it hard to believe that some people act ethically says volumes about you.

I can check my email via 3G or even dial-up. I have friends, neighbours and colleagues who I can ask to use their connection or their computer if necessary. There are libraries and internet cafes.

There's really no need to presume that you're presence on someone else's network is either welcomed nor imposes any costs on the network owner.

So let's get this straight.

You're in a café in a town you're visiting and you urgently need to check your email and a few websites. You open up your laptop and notice there's an open connection which your machine automatically connects to.

And you really telling me that you wouldn't do anything at all until you'd gone around and knocked on all the nearby doors to find out who the network belonged to?

 

[sim667]

i use them sometimes, but i have my own...... and tbh with an iphone i dont really ever take my laptop out at all now either....

I think bandwidth theft is illegal tho, i read about someone getting a fine....

I know in london if you see a spray paint infinite sign with 2 dots above it it means there's an unsecured network there.

 

[jæd]

So let's get this straight.

You're in a café in a town you're visiting and you urgently need to check your email and a few websites. You open up your laptop and notice there's an open connection which your machine automatically connects to.

And you really telling me that you wouldn't do anything at all until you'd gone around and knocked on all the nearby doors to find out who the network belonged to?

Bit silly to leave that "Automatically Connect" check box on. You don't know what you're connecting to... These days its just quicker + safer to get a 3G dongle...

 

[Callum91]

Bit silly to leave that "Automatically Connect" check box on. You don't know what you're connecting to... These days its just quicker + safer to get a 3G dongle...

You have to pay for it though don't you. Cheaper to just borrow a small amount of someone else's.

 

[jæd]

You have to pay for it though don't you. Cheaper to just borrow a small amount of someone else's.

Depends what "cheaper" means to you. Without a 3G dongle (or tethered phone) you need to balance the chance of an unsecured wifi spot vs it could be misconfigured vs could be snooping on your traffic.

And of course there's your moral and ethical outlook to be considered...

 

[Callum91]

Depends what "cheaper" means to you. Without a 3G dongle (or tethered phone) you need to balance the chance of an unsecured wifi spot vs it could be misconfigured vs could be snooping on your traffic.

And of course there's your moral and ethical outlook to be considered...

Like some people have already said , as long as you're just checking email or doing some light net browsing , it's really not that big a deal.

 

[editor]

Bit silly to leave that "Automatically Connect" check box on. You don't know what you're connecting to... These days its just quicker + safer to get a 3G dongle...

Considerably more expensive though, and you'd have to remember to lug the dongle around with you - and hope there's a 3G signal.

So if you were in a café in the scenario I described, would you go ahead and check your mail, or would you go on a tour of the 'hood first to find out who it might belong to (assuming they're in anyway)?

 

[subversplat]

Doesn't theft require somebody to be deprived of something, usually of a monetary value? I see all these accusations of theft kicking around the place, but I can't see it being any more harm than looking across the windows at someone else's telly.

Spurious claims of caps being busted and 3g routers being left wide open (cases of which I have heard of: nil) aside, it can hardly be considered unethical.

 

[jæd]

Considerably more expensive though, and you'd have to remember to lug the dongle around with you - and hope there's a 3G signal.

So if you were in a café in the scenario I described, would you go ahead and check your mail, or would you go on a tour of the 'hood first to find out who it might belong to (assuming they're in anyway)?

I'd be using my tethered iPhone...! Safe, secure, and without ethical qualms...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd be using my tethered iPhone...!

I'd be using untethered's iPhone.

Just to piss him off.

 

[editor]

I'd be using my tethered iPhone...! Safe, secure, and without ethical qualms...

Gosh! What a clever answer. Now let's assume you haven't got your phone - or it's non replaceable battery has just conked out - so you've just got a laptop.

Would you connect to the open wi-fi network to do a quick bit of web browsing or not?

Spurious claims of caps being busted and 3g routers being left wide open (cases of which I have heard of: nil) aside, it can hardly be considered unethical.

Exactly. It's a piss weak argument.

 

[jæd]

Gosh! What a clever answer. Now let's assume you haven't got your phone - or it's non replaceable battery has just conked out - so you've just got a laptop.

I'd be charging my iPhone from my laptop battery... Or I could cast around looking for BTOpenzone wifi. Or I could go and hang around a MacD's. Since an urgent email like this is probably work related I could go and find an Internet cafe and claim it on expenses... (Work people would be really pissed off with me if I checked it work stuff over non-secured wifi – even tho' its a VPN...)

 

[Intastella]

Sorry for sounding a bit fick, but how can someone check my files out if we're sharing a network? How does it work?

 

[Jackobi]

I know in london if you see a spray paint infinite sign with 2 dots above it it means there's an unsecured network there.

Warchalking.

 

[editor]

I'd be charging my iPhone from my laptop battery... Or I could cast around looking for BTOpenzone wifi. Or I could go and hang around a MacD's. Since an urgent email like this is probably work related I could go and find an Internet cafe and claim it on expenses... (Work people would be really pissed off with me if I checked it work stuff over non-secured wifi – even tho' its a VPN...)

Wow. As wriggles go, that's in the Olympian league!

It was a simple question so why not just give a simple answer instead of loading up so many ridiculous caveats?

Once again: you're in a café with your laptop and you need to check a few sites urgently. There is only an open network available. Do you use it or not?

 

[jæd]

Wow. As wriggles go, that's in the Olympian league!

It was a simple question so why not just give a simple answer instead of loading up so many ridiculous caveats?

Once again: you're in a café with your laptop and you need to check a few sites urgently. There is only an open network available. Do you use it or not?

For someone like me its a hugely contrived situation. I'm unlikely to just have my laptop on me and the same time expect to answer hugely urgent emails. I'd expect someone who regularly found themselves in the same situation would get either a Blackberry or a 3G dongle rather relying on the charity (or non-technical skills) of strangers.

I think that using unsecured wireless without asking is (a) quite unsafe and (b) wrong. You obviously think the opposite. Big deal...

 

[Callum91]

For someone like me its a hugely contrived situation. I'm unlikely to just have my laptop on me and the same time expect to answer hugely urgent emails. I'd expect someone who regularly found themselves in the same situation would get either a Blackberry or a 3G dongle rather relying on the charity (or non-technical skills) of strangers.

I think that using unsecured wireless without asking is (a) quite unsafe and (b) wrong. You obviously think the opposite. Big deal...

I agree with the having a Blackberry/3G Dongle bit , but borrowing someones net for a few minutes really isn't that big a deal.

 

[Jonti]

Sorry for sounding a bit fick, but how can someone check my files out if we're sharing a network? How does it work?

It's your network, how would you like it to work?

In the broadest possible terms, if you use my kit, my network, then I as the network admin, can see what you're doing; that's the main thing.

But it also means I can send instructions to your machine, over the network that I have provided and you are using. Depending on the operating system, and how it has been configured, I may be even able to instruct your machine to show me stuff in your browser cache and elsewhere on your hard drive, as well as read all of your internet traffic.

 

[Intastella]

It's your network, how would you like it to work?

In the broadest possible terms, if you use my kit, my network, then I as the network admin, can see what you're doing; that's the main thing.

But it also means I can send instructions to your machine, over the network that I have provided and you are using. Depending on the operating system, and how it has been configured, I may be even able to instruct your machine to show me stuff in your browser cache and elsewhere on your hard drive, as well as read all of your internet traffic.

Oooh, schneaky!

/Puts double locks on everything

Cheers